I think that's been analysed to a draw, many years ago.
Chess will never be solved, here's why
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DesperateKingWalk wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Incidentally I still have paranormal abilities but I don't use them much. I know you "know" they're impossible. Must make you feel ever so secure to know that.
Why are you still talking about yourself?
You should start a new thread just about yourself.
Just to watch how people respond.
Jan 28, 2023
0
#7685
tygxc wrote:
@7911
"a weakly solved game has an algorithm for perfect play"
++ No, a weakly solved game has
a strategy to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition.
A strategy is no algorithm.
A strategy can be a set of moves like Checkers, or a set of rules like Connect Four, or a combination, most likely for Chess.
a strategy is an algorithm by definition lmao.
Jan 28, 2023
0
#7686
Try different pawn removal setting (ie removing 1 or more Pawns for both sides)
Then deciding after you have reached a solution, with that set up. How decisive it is to put all of them back.
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
tygxc wrote:
@7911
"a weakly solved game has an algorithm for perfect play"
++ No, a weakly solved game has
a strategy to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition.
A strategy is no algorithm.
A strategy can be a set of moves like Checkers, or a set of rules like Connect Four, or a combination, most likely for Chess.
a strategy is an algorithm by definition lmao.
Yes but not a precise algorithm. If I find myself two pawns up with a winning attack I may choose strategies. There may be some danger in the winning attack whereas using the threat of the attack to get the pieces off with an easily won ending is a strategy I might adopt. An engine might be more likely to go for the winning attack. The endgame strategy might be the best course for me because there's no danger. Such a strategy may be much more complex than the strategy of pursuing the winning attack but the tactics are easier. An engine might have difficulty in finding such a strategy by chance.
Optimissed wrote:
"...to any who stick their noses above the sandbags."
I am going to usurp this phrase, add it to my general conversational vocabulary, and pretend that I thought of it myself.
Many thanks, and also apologies.
Jan 28, 2023
0
#7689
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
tygxc wrote:
@7911
"a weakly solved game has an algorithm for perfect play"
++ No, a weakly solved game has
a strategy to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition.
A strategy is no algorithm.
A strategy can be a set of moves like Checkers, or a set of rules like Connect Four, or a combination, most likely for Chess.
a strategy is an algorithm by definition lmao.
Yes but not a precise algorithm. If I find myself two pawns up with a winning attack I may choose strategies. There may be some danger in the winning attack whereas using the threat of the attack to get the pieces off with an easily won ending is a strategy I might adopt. An engine might be more likely to go for the winning attack. The endgame strategy might be the best course for me because there's no danger. Such a strategy may be much more complex than the strategy of pursuing the winning attack but the tactics are easier. An engine might have difficulty in finding such a strategy by chance.
nono i know in regular speak a strategy isnt an algorithm, but in the math terms that tygxc uses it is.
Jan 28, 2023
0
#7690
optimissed the "weakly solved" that tygxc is claiming to cite is literally defined by there being such an algorithm.
Optimissed wrote:
[Link removed]
I think she could possibly help you with your problems. I don't know what she charges.
Please, do your daughter a favor and take that link down.
Jan 28, 2023
0
#7692
DesperateKingWalk wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
optimissed the "weakly solved" that tygxc is claiming to cite is literally defined by there being such an algorithm.
There is no algorithm possible in chess for what is being claimed. Chess in reality is not a strategy game. So algorithms will fail in most cases. As chess is a 100% tactical game. And every chess position only has 3 true evaluations. White wins, Black wins, or the position is a draw with perfect play.
And they only way to know what one is correct is by pure calculation in most cases.
And that is the reason why chess will never be, and can never be solved.
The game tree is just far too vast.
again, thats not how algorithms are defined in terms of "solving" you know the 7 piece tablebase? that's techinically an algorithm.
Jan 28, 2023
0
#7693
MARattigan wrote:
You have to be the stupidest person I've ever come into contact with
type of posts allowed https://www.chess.com/forum/view/community/chesscom-posting-rules
- personal attacks
If you are found unable to follow these rules, you may have your posting abilities restricted. @erik
@7968
"There is no algorithm possible in chess for what is being claimed" ++ There is no general algorithm with input any position i.e. FEN and output draw / win / loss.
"Chess in reality is not a strategy game" ++ It is.
"chess is a 100% tactical game" ++ Maybe 99%, but long term strategy is important too.
"And every chess position only has 3 true evaluations" ++ Yes.
"And they only way to know what one is correct is by pure calculation in most cases."
++ Yes, in the vast majority of cases calculation until the 7-men endgame table base or a prior 3-fold repetition is the only way. However, 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? is a loss for white and does not need any further calculation. Likewise some endgames with opposite colored bishops are clear draws and need no further calculation.
"And that is the reason why chess will never be, and can never be solved."
++ In 5 years Chess can be weakly solved, but that costs $3,000,000.
"The game tree is just far too vast." ++ There are too many legal positions 10^44 to strongly solve Chess with current technology, but existing cloud engines can in 5 years exhaust all 10^17 positions relevant to weakly solve Chess.
@7961
"a strategy is an algorithm by definition"
++'algorithm: a rule of procedure for solving a problem (as in mathematics) that frequently involves a repetition of an operation' - Webster
'strategy: a careful plan or method especially for achieving an end' - Webster
@7974
"There is no real strategy in chess" ++ Chess is a strategy game
"CHESS IS A 100% tactical game" ++ No it is not. Maybe 99% as per Teichmann. I know 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? is a loss for white without any calculation or tactics. I know how to win that with black: trade the bishop for a pawn and queen that pawn. That is long term. I cannot calculate 82 moves deep, but I can execute a strategy that goes 82 moves deep.
DesperateKingWalk wrote:
There is no real strategy in chess. That is a human concept to understand the game of chess. Again CHESS IS A 100% tactical game.
I don't understand why people don't understand this. Whether it's capturing a piece or controlling a diagonal, it is fundamentally the same.
agree
@7976
'tactics: the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat
or the art or skill of using available resources to reach an end' - Webster
I don't wish to spam, but removing the Pawns surely wins for White, as you can see here.
But how about this?
White wins there.
No one here has tested this out, still.
If you solve this, is it the key?