Chess will never be solved, here's why

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tygxc

@7909

"By definition chess can be represented by math."
++ Yes, of course.
Tromp has proven a bijection between chess positions and natural numbers 1, 2, 3, ..., N.
Chess can be described as a finitary relation between the set of natural numbers {1, 2, 3, ... N} and itself: position x can lead to positions y1, y2, y3, ... yn.
The initial position 1 can lead to positions 2, 3, 4, ... 21.
Those can then lead to positions 22, 23, 24, 25... 421.
And so on.
The game-theoretic value of all 7-men positions is known.

slaveofjesuschrist
Optimissed wrote:
slaveofjesuschrist wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
slaveofjesuschrist wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
slaveofjesuschrist wrote:

Good God, wtf 600 plus new posts, you know any interesting groups i can debate with?

Can you actually debate interestingly?

I don't know of any, unfortunately. It's really quite good because I can get on with some work.

 

yes, i hope so only one way to find out

 

OK what is it to be a slave?

to have a bond with someone, with emotions like affection and trust, trust being super underrated and undercreditted with how intense and important it can be.  and to be highly influenced by that persons actions and ways of living.


Perhaps that doesn't align with most normal perceptions of slavery but I'll take your point because, for you, it's a special relationship. Quite similar to the one I have with my wife, after being with her nearly 40 years. In your case, I wonder how much the significant person's actions and ways of living are an image created by something that can be considered akin to a propaganda industry? Even so, I don't doubt that many people can and do form a special, personal bond with the subject of such an image, which helps them during the course of their lives. I also wonder, though, what would be your reaction to the suggestion that such help may not the product of the subject of the image (being held up as an example of rightness and goodness) so much as the product of the strong feeling of trust in itself.

well even the Jews acknowledged that He walked the Earth, they just dont believe He is the SON of God, even the Muslims also accept this, they as well dont think that He is the Son of God, im very glad and happy you have been with your Wife for 40 years, that must mean your a very great character indeed,  i think perception of propaganda is usually negative, im not even going to look it up, i mean look how many different sects of Christianity there are, do you really think that they are all wrong? maybe they each have a piece of the Truth.  i mean check out what is the Best selling book, and all the movies and the ways that people copy from this Book in their lyrics and band names everything,  feelings are superfluous, they come and go, they are a way to navigate through this Life,  We both know hearts can change, the world of feelings is endless, check out Carl Jung, , i am seeking the Concrete, something that is immaterial, the Dwarves persay something that is immovabale, no matter how much the haters thrwart and manipulate and muddle and dilute the perfect Image. 

x-4413704039

Milhões e milhões de possibilidades

tygxc

@7936

10^17 relevant positions

tygxc

@7938

"a breakthrough in quantum computing is necessary"
++ No, present cloud computers can weakly solve chess in 5 years.

"whether black wins or white wins (with perfect play) is controversial" ++ No, it is a draw.

"whether e4 or d4 is the best first move" ++ Both draw.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@7911

"a weakly solved game has an algorithm for perfect play"
++ No, a weakly solved game has
a strategy to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition.
A strategy is no algorithm.
A strategy can be a set of moves like Checkers, or a set of rules like Connect Four, or a combination, most likely for Chess.

You have to be the stupidest person I've ever come into contact with (and that includes @Optimissed). 

I've already shown in posts #7691, #7717 and #7738 that the definition you quote can lead to solutions that nobody would call solutions or eliminate the possibility of  even a theoretical solution and by not mentioning time and resources is irrelevant to the topic anyway. I've brought your attention to that fact in #7901 on the previous page.

You just continue to trot out the definition like some demented parrot.

slaveofjesuschrist

at marattigan, you must not get out that much, if thats the stupidest, you sound dumb

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@7909

"By definition chess can be represented by math."
++ Yes, of course.
Tromp has proven a bijection between chess positions and natural numbers 1, 2, 3, ..., N.
Chess can be described as a finitary relation between the set of natural numbers {1, 2, 3, ... N} and itself: position x can lead to positions y1, y2, y3, ... yn.
The initial position 1 can lead to positions 2, 3, 4, ... 21.
Those can then lead to positions 22, 23, 24, 25... 421.
And so on.
The game-theoretic value of all 7-men positions is known.

Was that intended to be impressive? It's pathetic,

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@7938

"a breakthrough in quantum computing is necessary"
++ No, present cloud computers can weakly solve chess in 5 years.

"whether black wins or white wins (with perfect play) is controversial" ++ No, it is a draw.

"whether e4 or d4 is the best first move" ++ Both draw.

Prove it! Post a picture of your big red telephone. 

MARattigan
slaveofjesuschrist wrote:

at marattigan, you must not get out that much, if thats the stupidest, you sound dumb

I haven't got round to visiting mental asylums much since playing concerts with the school military band. (They were the only people who wanted to listen.) 

Sounds like you're pretty familiar with those places.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I had a previous failed marriage. It was actually to a Jewish woman, originally from Montreal. I was running a small business which failed when there were general strikes in the UK in the early 80s, although I managed to get my money out, I was in debt. There was naturally a lot of stress. Although I openly admit my atheism, ever since she left me and abducted our daughter, illegally back to Canada, it's seemed as though there was something or somebody looking down on me and and protecting me. I met Christine very soon after, because I started volunteering for a kind of charity which she was running. Initially it was just a friendship but then we decided to stick together and have a child. It was hard to marry because the Canadian Supreme Court managed to lose the record of my divorce. It would be difficult to sort it out but maybe unnecessary. Our son is a member of this site, married, with a 6 month old child and an extremely good job. His wife is a hospital consultant. Christine had thought she wasn't going to live long but she's one of a very few people who seems to have made a full recovery from very severe ulcerative colitis, which nearly killed her before we met, at exactly the time my wife left me. She's 64. I'm 8 years older. She's a Christian. I think the entire saga of religion is made up but I would never argue that religion is a bad thing. I see it as a personal decision with no moral judgement one way or the other. I'm glad you appear to be happy doing what you're doing.

A lot of people here seem to make moral judgements on others, regarding just about everything. Whether they've had Covid jabs, whether they disagree on points some regard as moral issues, and so forth. Definitely an insidious pressure on many people to conform to a sort of humdrum, mediocre acceptance of complete ordinariness and basically maybe even a lack of confidence and hope. One person I know quite well here happened to mention by accident that she had special delegates passes that could and did enable her to meet many very famous politicians and also to vote for Presidential candidates and people were poo-pooing and saying she was making it up. I knew she was telling the truth because I had been able to work out who she was, within a small percentage of inaccuracy. Maybe I am a lot cleverer than most others here and I make no bones about it, probably to rub their noses in it, because there are people here who really care and are very unpleasant to any who stick their noses above the sandbags. Fortunately, most people on this site don't care and are here to play chess.

I'm sure your first wife could yield quite a bit of truth that explains your various insecurities and manias.  She was an heiress, according to you anyway, did she support that small shop you mentioned?  You seem to have been off the beam your whole life, going all the way back to your psychic girlfriend that convinced you that you had paranormal abilities in your late teens/early adulthood.

Maybe give the "everyone is beneath me" schtick a rest for a while.

skip762

word

Intellectual_26

Word, Rick, Word?!

Intellectual_26

I don't wish to spam, but removing the Pawns surely wins for White, as you can see here.

But how about this?

White wins there.

No one here has tested this out, still.

If you solve this, is it the key?

Quang2404
tygxc wrote:

XD

MEGACHE3SE
tygxc wrote:

@7911

"a weakly solved game has an algorithm for perfect play"
++ No, a weakly solved game has
a strategy to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition.
A strategy is no algorithm.
A strategy can be a set of moves like Checkers, or a set of rules like Connect Four, or a combination, most likely for Chess.

a strategy is an algorithm by definition lmao. 

Intellectual_26

Try different pawn removal setting (ie removing 1 or more Pawns for both sides)

Then deciding after you have reached a solution, with that set up. How decisive it is to put all of them back.

JeremyCrowhurst
Optimissed wrote:

 "...to any who stick their noses above the sandbags."

I am going to usurp this phrase, add it to my general conversational vocabulary, and pretend that I thought of it myself.

Many thanks, and also apologies.

MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@7911

"a weakly solved game has an algorithm for perfect play"
++ No, a weakly solved game has
a strategy to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition.
A strategy is no algorithm.
A strategy can be a set of moves like Checkers, or a set of rules like Connect Four, or a combination, most likely for Chess.

a strategy is an algorithm by definition lmao. 

Yes but not a precise algorithm. If I find myself two pawns up with a winning attack I may choose strategies. There may be some danger in the winning attack whereas using the threat of the attack to get the pieces off with an easily won ending is a strategy I might adopt. An engine might be more likely to go for the winning attack. The endgame strategy might be the best course for me because there's no danger. Such a strategy may be much more complex than the strategy of pursuing the winning attack but the tactics are easier. An engine might have difficulty in finding such a strategy by chance.

nono i know in regular speak a strategy isnt an algorithm, but in the math terms that tygxc uses it is.  

MEGACHE3SE

optimissed the "weakly solved" that tygxc is claiming to cite is literally defined by there being such an algorithm.