Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of Intellectual_26

A multiple of 100 is reached by Me, yet again!

Avatar of Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@8103

"Sveshnikov's plan: the conclusion has been reached before the investigation begins"
++ The aim of weakly solving Chess is not to ascertain that Chess is a draw, we already know that, but rather to establish how.

     Exactly. You already have the conclusion and make sure you don't investigate enough possibilities to risk finding out it may be incorrect.


I wouldn't mind betting that chess is a draw with someone who thinks it may not be. Or betting that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses for white with someone who thinks it may not. Neither would have a chance of winning, so I could make a lot of money on an accumulator, betting their dollar (or a £) against my million, a thousand times. Not that I have a million. I could borrow it against the certainty I would win.

I'll take your bet that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses for white at odds of 10^24 to 1.  How much do you want to stake?

Avatar of Optimissed

£10 ^30 please.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
tygxc wrote:

@8165

"you arent just calculating 1 black response"
++ I use the already calculated ICCF WC draws as seeded lines.
I take the black moves as they were and explore white alternatives.

thats making an assumption that black's moves are perfect/good.  also, you need to calculate moves by black in response to white moves that differ from the seed.  

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

"Probably 1 e4 e5 and 1 e4 c5 draw as well,
but we only need one to weakly solve Chess, so the other is not relevant."

actually no, both are relevant, because you dont know which one draws, wins, or loses. you choose one, and if that one fails, you have to check the other.  but you cant gaurentee that the first one you choose works

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

tygxc you are also still assuming a draw.  

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

my GUESS is a draw.  it hasnt yet been proven, though.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
shangtsung111 wrote:

hikaru says also  draw but he is very confident.when they asked he says" just we know it"

its extremely statistically likely.  

Avatar of mpaetz

     Most of us, myself included, agree it's a draw, but also realize that neither the strongest human players nor the best contemporary engines can irrefutably demonstrate that this is true.

Avatar of fastwalker

Asserting anything about the distant future is wholly misguided, with the exception of this statement.

Avatar of mpaetz

     The only constant is change. Mais, plus sa change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Avatar of tygxc

@8203

"making an assumption that black's moves are perfect/good"
++ No assumption is needed:
it becomes certain when the black moves lead to a 7-men endgame table base draw,
or a prior 3-fold repetition.

Avatar of tygxc

@8204

"both are relevant, because you dont know which one draws, wins, or loses. you choose one,
and if that one fails, you have to check the other"
++ No: the grandmasters chose the best candidate to draw as black disregarding all alternatives. If a 7-men endgame table base draw or a 3-fold repetition is reached in all lines,
then in retrospect the selected black move was right.
Yes, if 1 e4 e5 were to fail, then 1 e4 c5 would have to be checked, but that is not realistic.
You cannot find any white win after 1 e4 e5.

Avatar of tygxc

@8208

"hikaru says also draw but he is very confident. when they asked he says we just know it"
++ 'That ... every even integer is a sum of two primes,
I regard as a completely certain theorem, although I cannot prove it.' - Euler
Still considered true, still unproven.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

" 'That ... every even integer is a sum of two primes,
I regard as a completely certain theorem, although I cannot prove it.' - Euler" 

yeah, but that doesnt mean anything.  

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

"No: the grandmasters chose the best candidate to draw as black disregarding all alternatives. If a 7-men endgame table base draw or a 3-fold repetition is reached in all lines,
then in retrospect the selected black move was right." 

you assume that thats whats going to happen.

Avatar of Optimissed
mpaetz wrote:

     Most of us, myself included, agree it's a draw, but also realize that neither the strongest human players nor the best contemporary engines can irrefutably demonstrate that this is true.


Irrefutably perhaps isn't the best choice of words since if it can't be shown to be a draw then neither can the proposition that it's a draw be refuted.

Avatar of Optimissed
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
shangtsung111 wrote:

hikaru says also  draw but he is very confident.when they asked he says" just we know it"

its extremely statistically likely.  


happy.png
Since the word "statistically" adds nothing of value, you're saying that in your opinion, it isn't certain but it's extremely unlikely that chess is not a draw.

IMO it's down to personality types. Some people prefer to commit themselves more than others. Different ways of thinking, one of which is not "better" than the other. Committing oneself, in general, can lead to very positive results. Not doing so tends to avoid negative results.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
shangtsung111 wrote:

hikaru says also  draw but he is very confident.when they asked he says" just we know it"

its extremely statistically likely.  



Since the word "statistically" adds nothing of value, you're saying that in your opinion, it isn't certain but it's extremely unlikely that chess is not a draw.

IMO it's down to personality types. Some people prefer to commit themselves more than others. Different ways of thinking, one of which is not "better" than the other. Committing oneself, in general, can lead to very positive results. Not doing so tends to avoid negative results.

at the moment its not *just* my opinion that it is extremely unlikely that chess is not a draw.  

its based on the game databases and programs that we already have.  conditional probability.  

Avatar of tygxc

@8215

"that doesnt mean anything"
++ It means that a renowned mathematician regards a theorem as completely certain without proof.
Likewise Chess being a draw is completely certain.

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