Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

It isn't meaningful, except insasmuch as it's correct. It's also somehing I've been saying for five or six years, here and on related threads. The simplistic thinking comes from those who think that chess has to be analysed from front to back or from the back, backwards. Neither is going to work since both get bogged down in the middle game. What is needed is a different approach which starts in the middle game. I mentioned it with some detail years ago but the nature of this thread is such that the clever ones mostly give up on it, due to lack of progress, caused by the impasse between tygxc and you lot: the mathematicians' stable. Neither side seems capable of the necessary creativity, or of recognising it. Mainly dumbos.

Oh, is that what you've been saying for 5 or 6 years? That we should focus on the 99.99999999%+ of chess that is completely unsolved and just buckle down and figure it out? That's brilliant. You are a titan of intellect that knows no equal...

Tell you what...if you, by yourself, can formulate and prove one single new chess theorem/rule that you, by yourself, can explain point by point...and that theorem advances the algorithmic solving of chess in even the smallest degree...I will happily sign on for your efforts.

playerafar
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
Elroch wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@11570

"if a computer checking x number of moves fail to find a win,
how can you know a computer checking x +1 moves would also fail to find a win"
++ It is the other way around.

It took me a while to understand your thinking here (because it makes no sense). Your idea is that if you stick your head in the sand by looking at fewer variations, you are less likely to be proven wrong, therefore are more likely to be right? 

To return to sanity, an incomplete search has an uncertain result.

You keep saying that as long as you treat uncertainty as certainty, it becomes certain.

Great thinking.

you misunderstand tygxc. basically, tygxc cannot even let the consideration of the idea that a stronger engine would find a win enter his fantasy. So he has to twist the meaning of the question to fit his fantasy.

'oh they couldnt have been pointing out a critical flaw of my "logic", they must be making that flaw in logic on their own, it couldnt be that they are pointing out that that is the exact logic I am using. So im going to instead 'correct' their flaw in logic, and pretend that they arent pointing out that that flaw is used in my arguments'

that is what is essentially going on in tygxc's head. the question was directly phrased to point out how tygxc was making obvious fallacy, but tygxc is so intellectually dishonest that it didnt even occur to him that they were presenting something that was in HIS argument.

Illogic.
tygxc's illogic.
Illogic is the term.
Does even illogic have its own internal logic?
Yes. But its still illogic.
------------------------------------
Do several people here have insights into tygxc's illogic?
Definitely.
They might and do qualify it differently - but there's general consensus.
He's pushing illogic.
Why?
What will happen if this whole process continues here for another ten years? I'm not sure of tygxc's age.
But if he has lots of living time left - 
then the effects of the forum might eventually lead to some self-discovery by him. And discovery of other things. By him.
Like the generic side of logic and math and science.
And that logic not only binds math together and binds science together ...
but logic also binds them together and with each other.
----------------------------------
when there's arguments between those that deny science/logic and those that recognize reality ... one often then sees arguments about 'rules of logic' and what logic is.
In other words - even with logic as with science - deniers will try to put a box around it. Their box. Their rules.
And then from there - argue from their invalid premises.
While projecting what they do.
Goes on constantly on the website.
---------------------------------------------
Does tygxc believe his own illogic?
Always an issue with many pushing overt denials and distortions ... and trolling too.
But there's a general pattern ...
oscillation between self-belief and deceit.
Why? How?
Because of imperative compulsion.
Whoever - begins not to care whether he/she believes his/her own nonsense or not. 
And has already committed into not even considering or being aware as to whether he/she so believes his/her illogic and denials and disinformation and projections and lies and other falsehoods.
That grows on them.
Becomes more and more obvious.

playerafar

No care -
leads to not aware.

Elroch

@Optimissed, I understand the relationship between chalk and cheese.

It is that chalk is chalk and cheese is cheese.

Likewise for science and mathematical propositions. They do not overlap.

DiogenesDue
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed, I understand the relationship between chalk and cheese.

It is that chalk is chalk and cheese is cheese.

Likewise for science and mathematical propositions. They do not overlap.

Well, you can take a stick of either and write on the sidewalk...but one is quite a bit messier and doesn't last long.

Not a bad analogy for this exchange, actually.

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

It isn't meaningful, except insasmuch as it's correct. It's also somehing I've been saying for five or six years, here and on related threads. The simplistic thinking comes from those who think that chess has to be analysed from front to back or from the back, backwards. Neither is going to work since both get bogged down in the middle game. What is needed is a different approach which starts in the middle game. I mentioned it with some detail years ago but the nature of this thread is such that the clever ones mostly give up on it, due to lack of progress, caused by the impasse between tygxc and you lot: the mathematicians' stable. Neither side seems capable of the necessary creativity, or of recognising it. Mainly dumbos.

Oh, is that what you've been saying for 5 or 6 years? That we should focus on the 99.99999999%+ of chess that is completely unsolved and just buckle down and figure it out? That's brilliant. You are a titan of intellect that knows no equal...

Tell you what...if you, by yourself, can formulate and prove one single new chess theorem/rule that you, by yourself, can explain point by point...and that theorem advances the algorithmic solving of chess in even the smallest degree...I will happily sign on for your efforts.

No you wouldn't, since you are not capable of understanding anything remotely novel and creatively interesting. Neither are you the only inept person round here, with a tendency towards would-be despotism.

You know a good roast/ troll doesn't involve calling someone stupid now get back on the topic you weirdo 😛

BigChessplayer665

No mega has been the only one arguing he's just getting irritated at tyxgc and eltoch is trying but your arguments are either trolls or insults that's not a very good argument

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:

Mega only appeared after the conversation stopped because the only way E could defend his position was by misrepresenting my arguments and deliberately answering incorrect posts. Or maybe he's so useless he didn't know he was doing that. At this point I don't know, but E trolled the conversation and then Mega appeared.

Ok and ? Mega pretty much ignores both you and eroch he pretty much mostly cares about correcting txgcx I doubt mega appeared just to help e

MEGACHE3SE
playerafar wrote:
 

Illogic.
tygxc's illogic.
Illogic is the term.
Does even illogic have its own internal logic?
Yes. But its still illogic.
------------------------------------
Do several people here have insights into tygxc's illogic?
Definitely.
They might and do qualify it differently - but there's general consensus.
He's pushing illogic.
Why?
What will happen if this whole process continues here for another ten years? I'm not sure of tygxc's age.
But if he has lots of living time left - 
then the effects of the forum might eventually lead to some self-discovery by him. And discovery of other things. By him.
Like the generic side of logic and math and science.
And that logic not only binds math together and binds science together ...
but logic also binds them together and with each other.
----------------------------------
when there's arguments between those that deny science/logic and those that recognize reality ... one often then sees arguments about 'rules of logic' and what logic is.
In other words - even with logic as with science - deniers will try to put a box around it. Their box. Their rules.
And then from there - argue from their invalid premises.
While projecting what they do.
Goes on constantly on the website.
---------------------------------------------
Does tygxc believe his own illogic?
Always an issue with many pushing overt denials and distortions ... and trolling too.
But there's a general pattern ...
oscillation between self-belief and deceit.
Why? How?
Because of imperative compulsion.
Whoever - begins not to care whether he/she believes his/her own nonsense or not. 
And has already committed into not even considering or being aware as to whether he/she so believes his/her illogic and denials and disinformation and projections and lies and other falsehoods.
That grows on them.
Becomes more and more obvious.

Only someone who believes what they are saying could commit as much as tygxc does. sI believe that someone trolling would also not react as tygxc does to the more blunt examples of his illogic.

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:

I made an argument about the odds of repeated even numbers of errors occurring. I pointed out the difficulties since there's no error profile available UNTIL chess is solved. Exactly one hour later E made that point and accused me of not understanding it. I mean, that's completely hopeless of him. We have to go with the facts as they stand and we know that he has used stochastic arguments when it suits him and now he was opposing one because it didn't suit him. So E had already completely lost the argument but of course, his henchment weren't capable of realising he'd lost it. And since then he's obviously been floundering and only kept afloat by the heroic attempts of some sheep. I pointed out that he's a troll and he actually claimed that he had approached Ghostess who had confirmed that she really likes him and doesn't dislike him at all. He just isn't honest and neither, it seems, are you.

Well everyone except for like 3 people here is a troll

I'm not arguing against wether or not E is a troll but antagonizing trolls that like to troll feed is a bit of a mystery to me

Java
Optimissed wrote:

I made an argument about the odds of repeated even numbers of errors occurring. I pointed out the difficulties since there's no error profile available UNTIL chess is solved. Exactly one hour later E made that point and accused me of not understanding it. I mean, that's completely hopeless of him. We have to go with the facts as they stand and we know that he has used stochastic arguments when it suits him and now he was opposing one because it didn't suit him. So E had already completely lost the argument but of course, his henchment weren't capable of realising he'd lost it. And since then he's obviously been floundering and only kept afloat by the heroic attempts of some sheep. I pointed out that he's a troll and he actually claimed that he had approached Ghostess who had confirmed that she really likes him and doesn't dislike him at all. He just isn't honest and neither, it seems, are you.

and who is e

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

No you wouldn't, since you are not capable of understanding anything remotely novel and creatively interesting. Neither are you the only inept person round here, with a tendency towards would-be despotism.

Dodging the point entirely, as you are wont to do whenever you don't have an answer.

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:

There was no point. You're effectively a child who cannot construct even a meaningful critisism. I can't answer a point where it doesn't exist.

Average highschool level trashtalk

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I'm not a troll.

...there's that lack of self awareness again.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

There was no point. You're effectively a child who cannot construct even a meaningful critisism. I can't answer a point where it doesn't exist.

Not only can I construct one...I can also spell the word.

You are completely bereft of any notion of how to solve chess, middlegame or otherwise. That's the point, and it's one you will not be able to refute.

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

There was no point. You're effectively a child who cannot construct even a meaningful critisism. I can't answer a point where it doesn't exist.

Not only can I construct one...I can also spell the word.

You are completely bereft of any notion of how to solve chess, middlegame or otherwise. That's the point, and it's one you will not be able to refute.

You make quite a lot of typos and especially grammatical errors. I'm not childish enough to want to draw your attention to them. That was a typo. That's the sort of childishness you rely on. Or was it a joke?

You are bereft of any sense of reality, so that makes it even. Does it? Well, maybe not.

Now if I got a nickle for every typo I made ...

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:

Also I did set out a strategy for creating algorithms to solve the middle game, several years ago. The words I used may have been too long for you.

Now if only I could beat you in a middle game oh wait...

MARattigan
JavaScript781 wrote:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

hello

has any beaver bowler ever tried to solve it w/a 16 square or 144 sq board ?...just wondering. as it might lead to s/t - or already has.

A liitle info on 4x4.

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Also I did set out a strategy for creating algorithms to solve the middle game, several years ago. The words I used may have been too long for you.

Now if only I could beat you in a middle game oh wait...

Are you saying we've played each other??

Nah I'm too good to get you in random pool unfortenently

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed, I understand the relationship between chalk and cheese.

It is that chalk is chalk and cheese is cheese.

Likewise for science and mathematical propositions. They do not overlap.

This person is just the same.

Science has its rules and procedures. It consists of a systematic fixing of variables to discover relationships between them. Mathematics is an ideal too which is used to manipulate data in engineering and scientific projects among others, to render it into a useable mode. Yet neither depends on the other since science can be carried out with no more than simple arithmetic, as I pointed out.

Actually, there is an important point here. I hope someone has the interest to think on it.

The point is that mathematics is enormously useful in science, but strictly speaking the mathematical part - about what is abstractly true - is separate from the scientific part - applying the model to draw scientific conclusions.

For example, Fourier Theory is of enormous use in quantum mechanics. But the theory was developed long before the science even existed. Then there was a mature mathematical theory available to be applied (eg to infer the Uncertainty Principle).

But chess cannot be turned into a set of equations. Therefore, maths can have no bearing on solving chess, except statistically and tygxc's argument was statistically based.

Solving chess is a problem in combinatorial game theory. Mathematics in its broad sense is only of limited help because of the lack of generality and the arbitrariness of the problem. Thus there is less scope for clever deduction and more demand for heavy number crunching.

And statistics never helps get nearer a proof. The very best it can do is to give confidence in what needs to be proven.