Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Elroch

Not sure how you think it is "meaningless", @BigChessplayer665. happy.png

It has 4.5 million active players up to an extremely high level. I used to be very keen, but it takes a lot of time to analyse positions to play well. I am a perfectionist though, and others are happy to play it like OTB play.

BigChessplayer665
Elroch wrote:

Not sure how you think it is "meaningless", @BigChessplayer665.

It has 4.5 million active players up to an extremely high level. I used to be very keen, but it takes a lot of time to analyse positions to play well. I am a perfectionist though, and others are happy to play it like OTB play.

I mean blitz and rapid is more accurate than daily

I meant at my level there are not that many (enough playing daily ) for me to really compare my elo to fide maybe at beginner level it can be a good metric but at 2000 plus it becomes whoever plays the most games instead of skill

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

There was no point. You're effectively a child who cannot construct even a meaningful critisism. I can't answer a point where it doesn't exist.

Not only can I construct one...I can also spell the word.

You are completely bereft of any notion of how to solve chess, middlegame or otherwise. That's the point, and it's one you will not be able to refute.

You make quite a lot of typos and especially grammatical errors. I'm not childish enough to want to draw your attention to them. That was a typo. That's the sort of childishness you rely on. Or was it a joke?

You are bereft of any sense of reality, so that makes it even. Does it? Well, maybe not.

I guess you cannot see the humor in someone who likes to think they are intellectually superior to everyone around them calling someone childish, and telling them they cannot even manage to make basic criticisms...only to flub it and misspell the word...opening themselves to...?

It's very meta, I don't expect you to appreciate it.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Also I did set out a strategy for creating algorithms to solve the middle game, several years ago. The words I used may have been too long for you.

No, you may have thought you did...but no, not remotely.

BigChessplayer665
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

There was no point. You're effectively a child who cannot construct even a meaningful critisism. I can't answer a point where it doesn't exist.

Not only can I construct one...I can also spell the word.

You are completely bereft of any notion of how to solve chess, middlegame or otherwise. That's the point, and it's one you will not be able to refute.

You make quite a lot of typos and especially grammatical errors. I'm not childish enough to want to draw your attention to them. That was a typo. That's the sort of childishness you rely on. Or was it a joke?

You are bereft of any sense of reality, so that makes it even. Does it? Well, maybe not.

I guess you cannot see the humor in someone who likes to think they are intellectually superior to everyone around them calling someone childish, and telling them they cannot even manage to make basic criticisms...only to flub it and misspell the word...opening themselves to...?

It's very meta, I don't expect you to appreciate it.

Ironically you were criticizing dio of typos earlier so L O

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

You and I have agreed with each other many times but also we have disagreed. Where we have disagreed, it has always seemed that you are missing or unable to understand some subtlety, which makes the point of disagreement more complex than you take it to be. It has happened so often that at first I put it down to lack of intelligence in you but perhaps it's intellectual laziness and complacency. Even so, your intellect is not to be trusted, by me and preferably (for you) not by yourself, either. Here, instead of the simple understanding, you are pushing a complex idea of games theory (excuse me ... combinational games theory) which cannot possibly yield the accuracy you demand of others.

Why? Because chess is not solved and therefore it cannot be depicted in theory. Therefore the theory cannot exist and is probably never going to exist. Therefore we must accept a scientific approach to solving chess.

You surround yourself with rather dumb people who hero worship you (they wouldn't if they were cleverer) and they wave their wings and gnash their teeth at people for you. And you entirely depend on them when you are trying to make bad arguments, as per usual.

Sorry to have to explain this to you, but since your entire worldview is based on hierarchies of intelligence, you're not really capable of seeing the world the way normal people do...

Elroch (and a number of other posters would also qualify) is someone who has earned some respect over time...but he's a peer, effectively. You, on the other hand, have proven countless times that you are not up to snuff...and you feel the same way yourself, which is why it irks you so much that you have rendered yourself ineligible to post in threads you long to be accepted in...sad, but oh so very true.

Elroch
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
Elroch wrote:

Not sure how you think it is "meaningless", @BigChessplayer665.

It has 4.5 million active players up to an extremely high level. I used to be very keen, but it takes a lot of time to analyse positions to play well. I am a perfectionist though, and others are happy to play it like OTB play.

I mean blitz and rapid is more accurate than daily

More accurate at what? Estimating blitz and rapid playing standard? Daily is daily and live is live. They are distinct.

I meant at my level there are not that many (enough playing daily ) for me to really compare my elo to fide maybe at beginner level it can be a good metric but at 2000 plus it becomes whoever plays the most games instead of skill

How could you possibly think that makes sense? You should be familiar with how rating systems work, and it is not about who plays the most games. The top of the daily ratings list has multiple players who have played not much more than 100 games (the actual top rated player is an anomaly, with only 6 games, and a lot of uncertainty).

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

You only explain things in your own mind. That means you explain how you would like it to be in a perfect world for Diogenes. You're crazy and there's no need for anyone to be "explained to" by you.That is what I think and I have no doubt that a lot of others think it too.

Apply Occam's Razor to both "narratives" and it quickly becomes obvious which is real.

I'm a retired software development director who helped the internet grow and ergo dislikes those who make the internet an annoying place with lots of misinformation.

You're supposedly a philosopher who is expert in every subject, a child prodigy who has a 169IQ and wields paranormal powers. Formerly the best debater on Facebook. A lone crusader who is persecuted by a malicious cartel.

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Also I did set out a strategy for creating algorithms to solve the middle game, several years ago. The words I used may have been too long for you.

No, you may have thought you did...but no, not remotely.

This is like being lectured to by a hamster.

Hamsters are smarter than some humans

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Also I did set out a strategy for creating algorithms to solve the middle game, several years ago. The words I used may have been too long for you.

No, you may have thought you did...but no, not remotely.

This is like being lectured to by a hamster.

Link your "strategy", or summarize it for everyone...I mean, you should know the basics of it, yes? Concrete steps for moving forward, mind you, not some meadering pontificating.

MARattigan

#11760

To be precise, some hamsters are smarter than some humans. A hamster that thought @Optimissed would gain anything by being lectured to would not be the sharpest tool in the hamster toolbox.

DiogenesDue
MARattigan wrote:

#11760

To be precise, some hamsters are smarter than some humans. A hamster that thought @Optimissed would gain anything by being lectured to would not be the sharpest tool in the hamster toolbox.

The purpose of exposition is not always to change/effect the target of said exposition.

MARattigan

Excuse me for saying it, but it does read remarkably like meandering pontification.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Also I did set out a strategy for creating algorithms to solve the middle game, several years ago. The words I used may have been too long for you.

No, you may have thought you did...but no, not remotely.

This is like being lectured to by a hamster.

Link your "strategy", or summarize it for everyone...I mean, you should know the basics of it, yes? Concrete steps for moving forward, mind you, not some meadering pontificating.

If you have the memory you claim, you'd have remembered it.

Paraphrased, it consists of identifying the dynamic structures which change games both in type and in balance and developing algorithms that recognise them and can analyse them to a sufficient degree of accuracy by means of employing sets of standard matches which trigger comparison based assessments which in turn trigger in-depth line selectors. In the 1990s, some kind of variable depth analysis started to be used, providing a focussed analysis on "sharp" positions but they were insufficient because all they could do was to increase the search depth. This would incorporate sets of dynamic destabilisation types. Chess consists of successive destabilisation and recrystalisations, either locally or overall. Fluidity can be local or universal and so can stasis.

This is pretty much off the top of my head because it's years since I thought about it and I forget the terminology I was using. If you comment on it I will be able to tell whether or not you're being positive. I'll jut ignore anything negative, if that's ok. Let's see if you understand what positive and negative imply, regarding criticism.

I would indeed tend to remember it, if you had actually posted this type of thing previously.

Still, what you posted now does not lend itself to anything coherent or remotely actionable. It sound a lot like what a storeowner of a crystal and sacred sound shop in Austin, Texas once said to me about crystals and how their vibrations sync with the human soul...

I didn't buy anything at that store, and I'm not buying here, either.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

So basically, the initial focus is not on the openings, nor on endings. Both of those are crystalised structures. Instead, the initial focus of analysis is on middle game types. It requires a novel method of analysis but if it can be completed, it would make the so-called "strong" analysis much quicker as well as altering the meaning of "strong" in a useful direction, since the majority of positions in chess are useless from a solving point of view and if desired, they would be an adjunct to the solution. I think there's a fair chance that you won't like what I'm saying but I think it's the only way forward.

What are your proposed middle game types and what criteria are requirements for each? This is just a set of surface level musings without them.

Elroch

I know. To identify the "dynamic structures" let's use a neutral network with 65 million parameters, and then train it using autoplay and Monte Carlo search to a similar strength to the top chess engine.

Ah, Leelachess has already done it, following AlphaZero's lead.

playerafar
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
playerafar wrote:
 

Illogic.
tygxc's illogic.
Illogic is the term.
Does even illogic have its own internal logic?
Yes. But its still illogic.
------------------------------------
Do several people here have insights into tygxc's illogic?
Definitely.
They might and do qualify it differently - but there's general consensus.
He's pushing illogic.
Why?
What will happen if this whole process continues here for another ten years? I'm not sure of tygxc's age.
But if he has lots of living time left - 
then the effects of the forum might eventually lead to some self-discovery by him. And discovery of other things. By him.
Like the generic side of logic and math and science.
And that logic not only binds math together and binds science together ...
but logic also binds them together and with each other.
----------------------------------
when there's arguments between those that deny science/logic and those that recognize reality ... one often then sees arguments about 'rules of logic' and what logic is.
In other words - even with logic as with science - deniers will try to put a box around it. Their box. Their rules.
And then from there - argue from their invalid premises.
While projecting what they do.
Goes on constantly on the website.
---------------------------------------------
Does tygxc believe his own illogic?
Always an issue with many pushing overt denials and distortions ... and trolling too.
But there's a general pattern ...
oscillation between self-belief and deceit.
Why? How?
Because of imperative compulsion.
Whoever - begins not to care whether he/she believes his/her own nonsense or not. 
And has already committed into not even considering or being aware as to whether he/she so believes his/her illogic and denials and disinformation and projections and lies and other falsehoods.
That grows on them.
Becomes more and more obvious.

Only someone who believes what they are saying could commit as much as tygxc does. sI believe that someone trolling would also not react as tygxc does to the more blunt examples of his illogic.

tygxc probably tells himself he believes what he is saying.
But I'm suggesting that whenever somebody keeps pushing illogic or disinformation or outright dishonesty like O does - that somebody ends up neither caring nor attending to his/her truth/lack of same nor honesty/dishonesty nor accuracy/inaccuracy.
With personalities like O's - truth and honesty are seen as weakness or a kind of submission.
O believes he gets a kind of authority by contantly pushing his falsehoods.
But then bitterly complains as he constantly encounters such 'authority' not existing.
In other words - it doesn't work. He is masochistic.
But for some people - with some audiences - constant lying does work.
Like for the infamous Orange Fatso - in another country.

tygxc

@11684

"Chess will likely never be solved due to its immense complexity and the astronomical number of possible game variations."
++ Chess has 10^44 legal positions, of which 10^38 without underpromotions to pieces not previously captured, and of which Sqrt (10^38 / 10,000) = 10^17 are relevant to weakly solving Chess, as Schaeffer did for Checkers.

The ongoing ICCF World Championship finals considered
90*10^6 positions/s/server * 2 servers/finalist * 17 finalists * 3600 s/h * 24 h/d * 365.25 d/a * 2 a
= 1.9*10^17 positions.
So the effort is commensurate with the requirement and the 108 draws out of 108 games are at least part of the weak solution of Chess.

DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

@11684

"Chess will likely never be solved due to its immense complexity and the astronomical number of possible game variations."
++ Chess has 10^44 legal positions, of which 10^38 without underpromotions to pieces not previously captured, and of which Sqrt (10^38 / 10,000) = 10^17 are relevant to weakly solving Chess, as Schaeffer did for Checkers.

The ongoing ICCF World Championship finals considered
90*10^6 positions/s/server * 2 servers/finalist * 17 finalists * 3600 s/h * 24 h/d * 365.25 d/a * 2 a
= 1.9*10^17 positions.
So the effort is commensurate with the requirement and the 108 draws out of 108 games are at least part of the weak solution of Chess.

Clearly then your time has come...publish your paper and declare chess weakly solved. That would be utterly amazing to watch unfold...

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

Excuse me for saying it, but it does read remarkably like meandering pontification.

You sound remarkably like a senile old twerp, so that's sort of even.

You realy like describing yourself

I'm begining to see why dio messes with you it is halarious