Chess will never be solved, here's why

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MEGACHE3SE
MaetsNori wrote:
tygxc wrote:

"Nobody has an advantage in playing strength"
++ Over the board 2 of the 17 finalists are IM, 1 is FM, and others untitled.

I mean playing strength, in terms of engine analysis. The ICCF competitors are all almost certainly using the top engines available - which means all the players are performing at the same level.

theres a thing where russians reportedly have reduced hardware but played well, although during the timeframe where it was confirmed that russians had reduced hardware (ie the timespan of the interview tygxc cited) russians played considerably worse.

tygxc

@13526

"The ICCF competitors are all almost certainly using the top engines available"
++ Different engines, different tuning, different hardware (the Russians have worse hardware because of sanctions, but nevertheless 4 of the 17 finalists are Russian), different time per move (50 days per 10 moves, but one may take 2 days on a move and the other 10 days).

"I don't believe human playing strength matters at this point, due to how high engines have climbed." ++ 4 Russians qualified for the World Championship finals, despite worse hardware.

"A 2300-rated human won't have anything to offer, in terms of chess understanding, to improve the playing strength of a 3600-rated engine."
++ 'the key is planning, which computers do not do well — Petrosian-like evaluations of where pieces belong, what exchanges are needed, and what move orders are most precise within the long-term plan.' SIM Jon Edwards wins 32nd World Correspondence Championship

'How many ideas can you interactively throw at the computer in one hour is the key question'
'It takes chess wisdom to escape with a draw even though Stockfish and co have calculated 2+ scores most of the middle game.'
Interview with ICCF 26th World Champion

"chess is a draw" ++ Yes

"Otherwise, the game would be flawed." ++ Losing Chess and Connect Four are first player wins.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@13526

"The ICCF competitors are all almost certainly using the top engines available"
++ Different engines, different tuning, different hardware (the Russians have worse hardware because of sanctions, but nevertheless 4 of the 17 finalists are Russian), different time per move (50 days per 10 moves, but one may take 2 days on a move and the other 10 days).

Worse engines effectively equates to shorter think times. See my last post. 

...

tygxc

@13530

"strategies which could, conceivably, produce a forced win" ++ They try to win, but they draw.

"games of around 200 moves" ++ After average 39 moves it ends in a draw.

"white concentrates on keeping the pieces on where possible and useful and also on making one-step pawn moves" ++ They concentrate on the best possible moves, and draw.

"the idea that black has a forced win to be immaterial"
++ White has the initiative, an advantage of +1 tempo = +0.33 pawn, not enough to win.
Each further move dilutes the +1 tempo advantage, so the advantage gradually evaporates.

"what they need to do to make any possible progress" ++ They try to win, but draw.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@13530

"strategies which could, conceivably, produce a forced win" ++ They try to win, but they draw.

...

Tell me about it.

tygxc

@13525

"there is great uncertainty where this is"
++ No, when the thinking time reaches depth 2x, a checkmate in x is found with certainty.

Elroch
MARattigan wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@13530

"strategies which could, conceivably, produce a forced win" ++ They try to win, but they draw.

...

Tell me about it.

It's basically the same as @tygxc trying to solve chess.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Syzygy can play the endgame as a whole perfectly under competition rules

how do u know that ?...has a/o ever ran a check on ziggy ?...do we have some value software on it ?

i ran a 10-ply (opening game) against shannons 69+x10^12 report. I got 54+x10^12. still tryn2figure out their parametres. whos right ?...probably them. but some vfyn software still needsta be run right ? [ty github, stack OF ]

MARattigan
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Syzygy can play the endgame as a whole perfectly under competition rules

how do u know that ?...has a/o ever ran a check on ziggy ?...do we have some value software on it ?

Yes I've run many checks. It outplays me under competition rules (and anything else).

i ran a 10-ply (opening game) against shannons 69+x10^12 report. I got 54+x10^12. still tryn2figure out their parametres. whos right ?...probably them. but some vfyn software still needsta be run right ?

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Yes I've run many checks. It beats me under competition rules.

and thats sposta be hard to do ?

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I believe I mentioned that I do not regard you as being what I would call a clever guy. Really, your opinion and those of your supporters, regarding that, are of no value.

So goes your refrain towards anybody that knows more than you do on a given subject. It's tired and worn at this point.

MARattigan
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Yes I've run many checks. It beats me under competition rules.

and thats sposta be hard to do ?

Well, I can consistently outplay the Stockfishes under basic or competition rules. You want to try?

I can get Wilhelm to generate some random wins.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

While maths uses precise language, the vagueness of @Optimissed's language is an issue. He is very likely using "countable" incorrectly as a synonym of "finite". It is likely that he never has understood or even known the correct definition. To my knowledge, he never clicks on a link like that to fix the inadequacy of his basic knowledge.

Countable is not a synonym of infinite.

Correct. At this point it would be possible to think you know what the word means.

Something that is not countable may not be infinite.

And then you prove that wrong. Uncountable implies infinite (but not vice versa). Consequently not infinite implies countable or, to put it another way, finite implies countable. But not vice versa.

Again, being aware of the definition would help you here. Do you need some help explaining how to click on a link?

However, the infinite cannot be counted, since it's literally "not finite" and therefore it is not countable since only finite numbers exist as countable.

Now read the definition...

It's often difficult to tell when you're trying to deceive people and when you are just being honestly but extremely dim. Both possibilities are very real and may even occur simultaneously.

I understand that you have great difficulty with all sorts of things. If you stopped being so ignorant (hint: click links and learn something) it would help you with some of these.

Try to find someone who can help you understand that learning what a word means is a necessary precursor to discussing what it refers to. Perhaps your son? I imagine he could help you with basic set theory too, if he ever studied any pure maths.

MEGACHE3SE

optimissed i generally avoid indulging in your "discussions" (which consists of people explaining in detail how you are wrong, and you responding with "nuh uh" and insulting them) because i consider them a waste of time, but at this point i just feel bad for you.

https://mathworld.wolfram.com/CountablyInfinite.html

https://www.mathacademytutoring.com/blog/cardinality-and-countably-infinite-sets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable_set

http://5010.mathed.usu.edu/Fall2021/CHendricks/CountablyInfinite.html

https://collected.jcu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&cmastersessays (i dont think you'll be able to understand this one but its an interesting read)

Again, this has all been explained to you already, but as I predicted, you just said "nuh uh, you cant count infinity because infinity is uncountable" and ignored the nice explanation of set theory presented.

While set theory is (for most people) a college thing, cardinality of differing infinities can actually be approached at even the middle school level.

Finally, the basic question that you have refused to answer: Where are these "theoreticians" that agree with you?

MEGACHE3SE

whats hilarious is that when optimissed asks his son about infinities, his son is going to tell him EXACTLY what we have been telling him, and optimissed is going to come back to us and say how he was right all along.

Elroch

Nah, he won't ask him. How would that boost his ego? [Oh, your last link above is broken].

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@13525

"there is great uncertainty where this is"
++ No, when the thinking time reaches depth 2x, a checkmate in x is found with certainty.

See you in the afterlife. (Unfortunately we may be destined for the same place,)

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

a/o who thinks they can comprehend physical infinity is dum. ppl confuze #'s infinity w/ PI. big diff.

ohh !... & btw ?...why cant s/t be infinitely small ? summa u dunces feel s/t can be infinitely big right ?

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Well, I can consistently outplay the Stockfishes under basic or competition rules.

u cant play good chess. sorry not sorry. u barely know whats going on over a given board. o/w u wouldnt be here bragging abt it. ud be proving it w/ the best players in the world today. feeling unimpressed w/ s/o's narcissism.

MEGACHE3SE

"You claim you need everything to be verified by 13 year olds, who, you say, are even more advanced than you."

where? i only talked about established mathematicians with phds and peer reviewed research.

why arent you addressing that fact? why do you feel the need to make stuff up that is obviously false?

also, its very clear that you didnt read the link, because one of the sets in that link is an infinite set, and the link also mentions how there are multiple levels of differing infinities.