Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed, firstly, no, I am not stating my "opinion", any more than I would be expressing an opinion if I said that 1+1 is not 3, but is 2. The mathematical sciences are not made up of a set of opinions, they are made up of a set of things that are known to be true. Note that it is not only not an opinion, it is also not "mine". I am communicating what is known.

Are you familiar with the concept of a proof? Are you aware that a weak solution of a game is a proof of the game value? If you look at a paper on the first part of the solution of checkers, you will see a reference to the proof tree (which is the analysis that rigorously proves the result from a given position, by reaching a position with known value at the end of every line). A proof tree does not just deal with opponent moves that seem playable, it deals with all LEGAL opponent moves, because proofs are rigorous.

I am actually rather sure that you understand that @tygxc uses heuristics (vague positional understanding and rough rules) and empirical evidence (game results and unreliable evaluations) to support a conjecture, then describes this as "solving chess". You have drawn attention to this on occasion.

The real discussion between you and tygxc is on a higher level ... on a kind of meta-judgemental or interpretational level. You are stating what is known in the context of your approach to mathematics, which is that of a mathematical purist. tygxc is attempting to state what is known to him, as a scientist-pragmatist. One approach is not "better" than the other.

Yes, ty uses heuristics and they may not all be good. I'm equally sure that there is no possible solution of chess via mathematics. The only possibility is via a more pragmatic, scientific approach. You may disagree with that and you may not like it but I am also stating what is known, by a different process of "knowing" than the deductive one you prefer. All deductive judgements must still be judged to be appropriate and that's where the assumptive thinking may lurk for those who think that syllogistic logic is a be-all-and-end-all.

We're not in much disagreement. There does exist a "mathematical" (i.e. rigorous) solution algorithm - a computer program that would solve chess if it had the resources. It's just impractical to execute.

To be clear, the solution of checkers qualifies as such a mathematical solution, because it was designed to be rigorous and to reach certainty, not an approximation to this.

Avatar of Optimissed

OK that's a fair comment but ty is entitled to his utter rejection of a mathematical approach. He says he has trained to be a mathematician. It is because my son is a mathematician that I do realise its importance and am willing to meet you halfway. Incidentally, son claims he is now a data scientist. He certainly has a wonderful array of large screens in the new office he just had their garage converted into. One of them is even curved, which is really impressive.

I thought he was an engineer, so I was mistaken.

Avatar of Optimissed

^^ It simply isn't important because it can be seen as an unimportant technical detail.

Avatar of BigChessplayer665
llama_l wrote:

Saying dumb stuff then reporting people for pointing out you're dumb... pretty classless. Guess we can add that to the list.

Wait did tyxgc report you or was it someone else?

Avatar of BigChessplayer665
llama_l wrote:
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
llama_l wrote:

Saying dumb stuff then reporting people for pointing out you're dumb... pretty classless. Guess we can add that to the list.

Wait did tyxgc report you or was it someone else?

Mystery.

I don't think it was tyxgc someone else most likely

Avatar of Optimissed
llama_l wrote:

I'd guess that human bias is a natural instinct because leaving out the details is enormously efficient in most practical cases... but like I'm saying, if you want to leave out details, then leave them out of your conclusions as well.

I think we'd all agree "chess is solved in a practical sense." But the reason this topic is >10K posts is that his claims have had a lot of technical detail while his justifications have not.

I don't understand how disagreeing with ty can have led to 10,000 posts when there has been approx. zero reconciliation between both camps. It's therefore reasonable to assume that if fault exists on one side, then it exists on the other, also. Probably in equal proportions, simply because there's been no reconciliation.

Avatar of Optimissed
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
llama_l wrote:
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
llama_l wrote:

Saying dumb stuff then reporting people for pointing out you're dumb... pretty classless. Guess we can add that to the list.

Wait did tyxgc report you or was it someone else?

Mystery.

I don't think it was tyxgc someone else most likely

When did this happen?

Avatar of BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
llama_l wrote:
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
llama_l wrote:

Saying dumb stuff then reporting people for pointing out you're dumb... pretty classless. Guess we can add that to the list.

Wait did tyxgc report you or was it someone else?

Mystery.

I don't think it was tyxgc someone else most likely

When did this happen?

A day ago or couple llama got muted msgs thought it was cause he got angry at tyxgc and said a curse word but t couldv been a report

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Even though chess has around 10^43 positions, we only need to consider 10^17 positions to solve chess.

plz say again how u arrived at these general # ?

and have u personally done this thru sw dev ?...and if so, where is it ?...which language..? hw used ?...etc

used by a prominent doctor (Seuss) burst !!

AKA a conjecture

alotta ppl here confuse a theory w/out a proof as s/t that actually happened. like the BB & Abio. feeling confuzed.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
tygxc wrote:

@12368

proof = the evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or fact - Merriam-Webster

and there it is, you admit not knowing what a mathematical proof is.

I was right the whole time... shocker.

Avatar of BigChessplayer665
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@12368

proof = the evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or fact - Merriam-Webster

and there it is, you admit not knowing what a mathematical proof is.

I'm sorry tyxgc but that quote is not how you find out the truth lol

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:

OK that's a fair comment but ty is entitled to his utter rejection of a mathematical approach. He says he has trained to be a mathematician. It is because my son is a mathematician that I do realise its importance and am willing to meet you halfway. Incidentally, son claims he is now a data scientist. He certainly has a wonderful array of large screens in the new office he just had their garage converted into. One of them is even curved, which is really impressive.

I thought he was an engineer, so I was mistaken.

here's the thing, tygxc is claiming that his approach is mathematical. A "weak solution" is inherently a mathematical proof.

Avatar of Optimissed
llama_l wrote:

These days what do we have?

The realization that 40... 50? years of string theory was a dead end... that the last real leap in understanding happened 100 years ago. Sad.

String theory came out of an attempt to idealise the physical world and to invent imaginary characteristics for it. Ultimately, it emerged from the theory of dimensions, which is an important tool in experimental physics. Expanding it artificially like that was very nearly certain to be mistaken, since it consisted of humans trying to make the world conform to their very limited understanding of it. It persisted because it was a fad or a fashion. Probably worth doing, too, because I think it gave rise to some new understanding.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

LMFAO TYGXC DOESNT THINK HE USES HEURISTICS?!?!!?

the 10^17 is by definition an heuristic as it is not the precise outcome LMFAO.

my god how uneducated could someone be?!?!

Avatar of Optimissed
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

OK that's a fair comment but ty is entitled to his utter rejection of a mathematical approach. He says he has trained to be a mathematician. It is because my son is a mathematician that I do realise its importance and am willing to meet you halfway. Incidentally, son claims he is now a data scientist. He certainly has a wonderful array of large screens in the new office he just had their garage converted into. One of them is even curved, which is really impressive.

I thought he was an engineer, so I was mistaken.

here's the thing, tygxc is claiming that his approach is mathematical. A "weak solution" is inherently a mathematical proof.

I dislike all weak, strong or mediocre solutions of chess. There'll be zero progress whilst the current barriers to understanding are in place.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

OK that's a fair comment but ty is entitled to his utter rejection of a mathematical approach. He says he has trained to be a mathematician. It is because my son is a mathematician that I do realise its importance and am willing to meet you halfway. Incidentally, son claims he is now a data scientist. He certainly has a wonderful array of large screens in the new office he just had their garage converted into. One of them is even curved, which is really impressive.

I thought he was an engineer, so I was mistaken.

here's the thing, tygxc is claiming that his approach is mathematical. A "weak solution" is inherently a mathematical proof.

I dislike all weak, strong or mediocre solutions of chess. There's be zero progress whilst the current barriers to understanding are in place.

you're entitled to that opinion, although i would disagree with it. what matters most is consistency and intellectual honesty, which tygxc does not have.

Avatar of Optimissed

We're working on it. The problem is that he feels ring-fenced and besieged. Give him some rope and stop being so completely obsessive. It's that more than anything that ruins the approach from your side.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

tygxc why dont you just admit you havent taken any math proof classes?

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:

We're working on it. The problem is that he feels ring-fenced and besieged. Give him some rope and stop being so completely obsessive. It's that more than anything that ruins the approach from your side.

i will say that im definitely obsessive over people as intellectually dishonest as tygxc.

but part of it is that we are simply pointing out the logical errors he makes. that he makes logical errors all the time is not our fault.

Avatar of Optimissed

Try not to focus so hard on what you see, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, as intellectual dishonesty. Try to get beyond the logical errors that may be there and see it from his side. Also, try to understand that a mathematical solution for chess is impossible. It has to be heuristic, so how to make the heuristics accurate?