Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of Optimissed
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

FYI optimissed you should realize that the zermelo stuff applies independently of game complexity.

you should also realize that your definition of a 'mathematical representation' is improper, and that's causing your misunderstanding.

you are interpreting 'mathematical representation' as a human-written algorithm to guarantee and verify a solution of the game.

but a game as a mathematical object/representation is just the ruleset of the game expressed in logical language. human abilities and technology have no bearing here.

That isn't possible. It's like you don't understand the difference between second order differential equations and your mummy adding up the shopping list. Come to think, I don't expect you do understand the difference. You're clueless. That post is pretentious gobbledegook and you could not win an argument with me in a months of Sundays.

Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

English draughts was the limit that Zermelo's could be stretched to and even that was admitted to be a "weak solution". But draughts is linear in a way that chess isn't.

Mathematical induction is a very basic, deductively valid mapping. It can't be used to link to chess. That's bogus but it isn't anything to be surprised by. Victorian theoreticians were often untrustworthy and I'm just surprised you were taken in by it.

A tip to save you some effort @Optimissed. Simply copy the sentence, "I haven't the faintest idea what any of this is about", then, whenever you feel inclined to post, just paste it into the text area. It will convey exactly the same message without all that typing.

If you want to add some insults just type them after.

It is amusing that @Optimissed is unaware that mathematical theorems (such as the general form of Zermelo's theorem) apply to a class of objects with given properties and that the size of an example is irrelevant to the truth (unless it is explicitly part of the conditions of the theorem).

Would you mind controlling your alts please?

You are ridiculously pretentious. Amusing? Sad how you hide behind your trolls. How can anyone possibly have respect for you when you allow that kind of thing to take place, in the belief that it protects you from me?

I berlieve that you are not very intelligent. You are not inteklligent enough to be able to work out why Zermello's doesn't apply in the way you want it to. You are using Zermello's like a magic axiom that allows you to persuade people that you are right and yet since chess isn't solveable and Zermello's says it IS, according to you, something has to give. I suggest that you should give way to reality.

You are talking to me, tygxc and basically to a bunch of people without any brains who are not capable of reaching conclusions unless you tell them what to think. Sorry but that's the truth. A lot of pople ar going to agree with me and disagree with you. I mean, a lot of mathematicians who are also realists and who don't expect pure maths to get them off the hook.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

FYI optimissed you should realize that the zermelo stuff applies independently of game complexity.

you should also realize that your definition of a 'mathematical representation' is improper, and that's causing your misunderstanding.

you are interpreting 'mathematical representation' as a human-written algorithm to guarantee and verify a solution of the game.

but a game as a mathematical object/representation is just the ruleset of the game expressed in logical language. human abilities and technology have no bearing here.

That isn't possible. It's like you don't understand the difference between second order differential equations and your mummy adding up the shopping list. Come to think, I don't expect you do understand the difference. You're clueless. That post is pretentious gobbledegook and you could not win an argument with me in a months of Sundays.

I highly doubt you know how to do differential equations lol, nor are they relevant here. either way, that was a couple years ago for me.

that "gobbledygook" was 7th grade maths btw.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

it's quite hilarious how optimissed like "zermelo's theorem doesnt apply to chess" when the example that zermelo used that his theorem proves was chess.

Avatar of purpledragon345678
What is solved? It's solved if you like playing the game.
Avatar of Optimissed
MEGACHE3SE wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

FYI optimissed you should realize that the zermelo stuff applies independently of game complexity.

you should also realize that your definition of a 'mathematical representation' is improper, and that's causing your misunderstanding.

you are interpreting 'mathematical representation' as a human-written algorithm to guarantee and verify a solution of the game.

but a game as a mathematical object/representation is just the ruleset of the game expressed in logical language. human abilities and technology have no bearing here.

That isn't possible. It's like you don't understand the difference between second order differential equations and your mummy adding up the shopping list. Come to think, I don't expect you do understand the difference. You're clueless. That post is pretentious gobbledegook and you could not win an argument with me in a months of Sundays.

I highly doubt you know how to do differential equations lol, nor are they relevant here. either way, that was a couple years ago for me.

that "gobbledygook" was 7th grade maths btw.

I wouldn't know what 7th grade maths is. You mean it's something you learned at infants school? You're an American, apparently. I'm not.

What I do know is that you are quoting things without understanding what they mean. Yes you can define a game by its rules but that isn't what's meant by representing it mathematically.

Avatar of Optimissed
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

it's quite hilarious how optimissed like "zermelo's theorem doesnt apply to chess" when the example that zermelo used that his theorem proves was chess.

You sound just as obsessive as Elroch. Are you quite sure he isn't coaching you in everything you say?

Zermelo's Theorem is bogus when it comes to chess. Like a lot of Victorian-age theorists, he cheated. You probably think that he didn't use philosphical induction, which is non-deductive.

I think Elroch is coaching you. Can you think for yourself?? Ever??

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE

"What I do know is that you are quoting things without understanding what they mean. Yes you can define a game by its rules but that isn't what's meant by representing it mathematically."

Except for thats literally what it is LMFAO.

it's the definition of the mathematical object

"The games studied in game theory are well-defined mathematical objects. To be fully defined, a game must specify the following elements: the players of the game, the information and actions available to each player at each decision point, and the payoffs for each outcome. (Eric Rasmusen refers to these four "essential elements" by the acronym "PAPI".)"

basic wiki search.

btw im only using ethos here because i know you dont listen to logic.

Avatar of MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:

Zermelo's Theorem is bogus when it comes to chess. Like a lot of Victorian-age theorists, he cheated. You probably think that he didn't use philosphical induction, which is non-deductive.

LMFAO spoken like someone who didnt read the proof. God i wish i reached category theory already.

Avatar of Optimissed

I mean, Elroch protects himself with playerafar, Dio, bigchessplayer etc. Just trolls who never had a thought in their entire lives but who habitually use insults in order to protect their master. It would seem pathetic to most normal people.

Avatar of Optimissed

And the only reason is because I disagree with Elroch and I don't like being bullied. That's the entire sum total reason he does it. Is that not pathetic? Can't even argue for himself. The very fact he doesn't object to the trolls supporting him is contemptible and it completely discredits him.

Avatar of Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

FYI optimissed you should realize that the zermelo stuff applies independently of game complexity.

you should also realize that your definition of a 'mathematical representation' is improper, and that's causing your misunderstanding.

you are interpreting 'mathematical representation' as a human-written algorithm to guarantee and verify a solution of the game.

but a game as a mathematical object/representation is just the ruleset of the game expressed in logical language. human abilities and technology have no bearing here.

That isn't possible. It's like you don't understand the difference between second order differential equations and your mummy adding up the shopping list. Come to think, I don't expect you do understand the difference. You're clueless. That post is pretentious gobbledegook and you could not win an argument with me in a months of Sundays.

@Optimissed, he is right and is surely far more capable of doing mathematics than you, as well as understanding it.

Mathematics is the study of abstract truth. While it concentrates very much on results that are as general and applicable (for revealing more truth) it includes petty things like an arithmetic problem or a chess problem. This is because these can be represented abstractly and the truth of the answer proved using deductive logic.

Finding a weak solution of chess is a big chess problem (hence, in a general sense, a mathematical problem - see above). To be pedantic the problem includes both the detemination of the optimal value of the game (proven to exist by Zermelo's Theorem) and then the exhibition of a complete way for each side to achieve that result. Just like a checkmate problem where you have to say how to respond to every legal move by black all the way to mate. (It's highly likely that the solution of chess is actually two drawing strategies rather than one mating one, but all that changes is the objective).

It is interesting how you are blind even to the possibility that you might be wrong in your spectacularly arrogant proclamations about a short proof that you don't understand - Zermelo's theorem - and how that makes you appear to those who do understand. This is the consequence of passionately held absurd beliefs - to you, it is impossible that you are wrong and everyone else is right, isn't it?

Avatar of BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:

I mean, Elroch protects himself with playerafar, Dio, bigchessplayer etc. Just trolls who never had a thought in their entire lives but who habitually use insults in order to protect their master. It would seem pathetic to most normal people.

Nah I didn't even protect elroch at all I made one comment max lmao and who's insulting who in this post .... I'm very perplexed by this comment

Avatar of Elroch

@Optimissed sometimes fantasises that either all the people who disagree with him are alts of some single Nemesis, or that there are secret cabal meetings to co-ordinate the imagined war against him.

Avatar of BigChessplayer665
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed sometimes fantasises that either all the people who disagree with him are alts of some single Nemesis, or that there are secret cabal meetings to co-ordinate the imagined war against him.

Maybe I should create alts to disagree with him make his fantasy a reality

Besides I hardly find anyone interfering anyone in this thread other than maybe mega,or dio so I dunno why he's pointing me out lol

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

And the only reason is because I disagree with Elroch and I don't like being bullied. That's the entire sum total reason he does it. Is that not pathetic? Can't even argue for himself. The very fact he doesn't object to the trolls supporting him is contemptible and it completely discredits him.

When someone repeatedly chooses to walk face first into buzz saws, you can't accuse the buzz saws of being bullies. Just stop making a fool of yourself by adamantly claiming things you have no knowledge about and your troubles would miraculously cease...

Avatar of MARattigan
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed, here is access to a mathematical representation of all chess positions with 7 or fewer pieces on the board:

https://syzygy-tables.info/

No it's not.

These positions, for example, are not represented.

 
Ply count 0, O-O-O available
 
 

Basic chess positions, as for pretty much all the numbers bandied around. I don't think a single number has been posted even incorporating moves to zero (just multiply the basic numbers by 50 or similar).

The first position is a basic chess position. It's not covered in any published tablebase I know of. Of course the position after White's next move is, so that particular example doesn't represent much of a loss, but here's another.

 
 
White to move, O-O-O available
 

As for the numbers, I suggested in the first few pages @tygxc might like to account for the 50 move rule and amend his 10^44 to 4.85x10^46, which he accepted, but about two pages later it was 10^44 again. (I think multiplying by 100 should be closer than 50, but only with a correct approach to a forward search.)

And I'll repeat again, basic chess positions are entirely adequate for a weak solution of chess (dealing with a 50 move rule in generating a proof tree is simple). And it is such a weak solution that is the focus of the majority of this discussion - it is the meaning of "solved" that is being addressed.

You don't need to keep repeating it, I've already said the same several times. The Syzygy generation uses only basic rules positions. (Whether it produces a proof tree, I don't know. What's one of those?)

And yes we're talking about a weak solution, but I have also been talking about weakly solving and in particular how many nodes of the game tree might be visited with what I think is @tygxc's original method of not solving (think, because he refused to produce any exact description, and original because he now proposes to change the FIDE laws to make any moves not in a few particular ICCF games illegal and call it solved). 

Your point that strong solution of FIDE rules chess is much more impractical is correct, but not so interesting. There is no strong solution of (basic rules) checkers yet!

Nor of KPvK under competition rules.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I mean, Elroch protects himself with playerafar, Dio, bigchessplayer etc. Just trolls who never had a thought in their entire lives but who habitually use insults in order to protect their master. It would seem pathetic to most normal people.

Sane people figure out you are delusional pretty quick, actually.

Avatar of Elroch
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed, here is access to a mathematical representation of all chess positions with 7 or fewer pieces on the board:

https://syzygy-tables.info/

No it's not.

These positions, for example, are not represented.

 
Ply count 0, O-O-O available
 
 

Basic chess positions, as for pretty much all the numbers bandied around. I don't think a single number has been posted even incorporating moves to zero (just multiply the basic numbers by 50 or similar).

The first position is a basic chess position. It's not covered in any published tablebase I know of.

This is just a minor deficiency which is inessential. There is no reason that 3 piece tablebase can't include castling. A hypothetical 32 piece one certainly would have to!

Of course the position after White's next move is, so that particular example doesn't represent much of a loss, but here's another.

 
 
White to move, O-O-O available
 

As for the numbers, I suggested in the first few pages @tygxc might like to account for the 50 move rule and amend his 10^44 to 4.85x10^46, which he accepted, but about two pages later it was 10^44 again. (I think multiplying by 100 should be closer, but only with a correct approach to a forward search.)

The basic chess tablebase doesn't need a ply count, but adding DTZ broadens its application sufficiently for use in a weak solution of FIDE rules chess. A strong solution is a whole other order of unpleasantness!

And I'll repeat again, basic chess positions are entirely adequate for a weak solution of chess (dealing with a 50 move rule in generating a proof tree is simple). And it is such a weak solution that is the focus of the majority of this discussion - it is the meaning of "solved" that is being addressed.

You don't need to keep repeating it, I've already said the same several times. The Syzygy generation uses only basic rules positions. (Whether it produces a proof tree, I don't know. What's one of those?)

A proof tree is a tree of positions linked by legal moves. It includes all legal opponent moves at every point, and all its leaf nodes are positions where the value is clear (eg in the tablebase, but a single repetition suffices as a draw also, as the opponent has to be able to avoid these to refute a drawing strategy).

It thereby proves the value of the game is at least the min (from the point of view of the proponent) of the values of those leaf nodes.

Of course, you have one proof tree for white where the values of the leaf nodes are all at least a draw, and the same for black.

And yes we're talking about a weak solution, but I have also been talking about weakly solving and in particular how many nodes of the game tree might be visited with what I think is @tygxc's original method of not solving (think, because he refused to produce any exact description, and original because he now proposes to change the FIDE laws to make any moves not in a few particular ICCF games illegal and call it solved). 

Your point that strong solution of FIDE rules chess is much more impractical is correct, but not so interesting. There is no strong solution of (basic rules) checkers yet!

Nor of KPvK under competition rules.

happy

Avatar of MARattigan
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:

@Optimissed, here is access to a mathematical representation of all chess positions with 7 or fewer pieces on the board:

https://syzygy-tables.info/

No it's not.

These positions, for example, are not represented.

 
Ply count 0, O-O-O available
 
 

Basic chess positions, as for pretty much all the numbers bandied around. I don't think a single number has been posted even incorporating moves to zero (just multiply the basic numbers by 50 or similar).

The first position is a basic chess position. It's not covered in any published tablebase I know of.

This is just a minor deficiency which is inessential. There is no reason that 3 piece tablebase can't include castling. A hypothetical 32 piece one certainly would have to!

I was simply pointing out that you'd omitted to mention that minor deficiency. It would mean the production of several thousand new tablebases, which I think is why it's still a minor deficiency as of now. 

Of course the position after White's next move is, so that particular example doesn't represent much of a loss, but here's another.

 
 
White to move, O-O-O available
 

As for the numbers, I suggested in the first few pages @tygxc might like to account for the 50 move rule and amend his 10^44 to 4.85x10^46, which he accepted, but about two pages later it was 10^44 again. (I think multiplying by 100 should be closer, but only with a correct approach to a forward search.)

The basic chess tablebase doesn't need a ply count, but adding DTZ broadens its application sufficiently for use in a weak solution of FIDE rules chess. A strong solution is a whole other order of unpleasantness!

Pretty much what I said below.

And I'll repeat again, basic chess positions are entirely adequate for a weak solution of chess (dealing with a 50 move rule in generating a proof tree is simple). And it is such a weak solution that is the focus of the majority of this discussion - it is the meaning of "solved" that is being addressed.

You don't need to keep repeating it, I've already said the same several times. The Syzygy generation uses only basic rules positions. (Whether it produces a proof tree, I don't know. What's one of those?)

A proof tree is a tree of positions linked by legal moves. It includes all legal opponent moves at every point, and all its leaf nodes are positions where the value is clear (eg in the tablebase, but a single repetition suffices as a draw also, as the opponent has to be able to avoid these to refute a drawing strategy).

So in that case the structure produced by Syzygy is presumably not a proof tree for competition rules chess on the grounds that it's not a tree (or even two trees) and the nodes are not positions (at least not in the same game) but equivalence classes of positions without evaluations common across each equivalence class. Would that be correct?

It thereby proves the value of the game is at least the min (from the point of view of the proponent) of the values of those leaf nodes.

Of course, you have one proof tree for white where the values of the leaf nodes are all at least a draw, and the same for black.

And yes we're talking about a weak solution, but I have also been talking about weakly solving and in particular how many nodes of the game tree might be visited with what I think is @tygxc's original method of not solving (think, because he refused to produce any exact description, and original because he now proposes to change the FIDE laws to make any moves not in a few particular ICCF games illegal and call it solved). 

Your point that strong solution of FIDE rules chess is much more impractical is correct, but not so interesting. There is no strong solution of (basic rules) checkers yet!

Nor of KPvK under competition rules.