Chess will never be solved, here's why

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MARattigan

First sentence is b*llocks if you're talking about chess.com chess. No 7 man tablebase covers any positions that include previous repetitions with the same material under the 3R rule or castling rights. And the 8 man positions we have don't necessarily work in chess.com chess.

MARattigan

@Optimissed as usual not even on the same planet.

MARattigan

But they'll never accomodate repetitions (admittedly not relevant to a weak solution of "chess" as a whole). And don't hold your breath till we get 8 man tablebases that are guaranteed to work in chess.com.

MARattigan

@Optimissed

Have to admit I'm a bit weak on Theory.

MARattigan
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

We do know what perfect play looks like. For some 8 man chess positions, and all 7 man and less chess positions.

So perfect play does exist....

That's probably something else ... maybe like "fastest play to object". Not necessarily perfect by definition, since we may prefer aesthetic or clever over fastest.

...

The game state never did change......So it is perfect play.

Score in chess for finding a mate in 8 and playing the mate in 8 for white..... score 1-0.

Score in chess for finding a mate in 8 and playing 20 moves to mate for white..... score 1-0.

If the game state never did change, they'd never reach either mate.

MARattigan

No. The game theoretic value was a win and remained a win. The game state changed with every move.

So far you've confused game state with both game theoretic value and nodes reported by an engine.

MARattigan

@Elroch

Don't blame it on the long day. You've never been able to say anything sensible at any time.

MARattigan
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

No. The game theoretic value was a win and remained a win. The game state changed with every move.

So far you've confused game state with both game theoretic value and nodes reported by an engine.

In my example explaining perfect play in game theory.

White never made a error, in the won position, so never changed the game state. White just played a longer mate.

Again. Every move changes the game state whether it's perfect or not. The possible continuations change.

Perfect moves leave the game theoretic value alone. That's not the game state.

MARattigan
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

I would never have thought that game theory, would be as confusing to people as the theory of relativity.

But some of you have proven me wrong....

Well obviously it's going to be confusing if you can't get the terms right.

MARattigan

But it's you who are confused. What you've just said is nonsense. Moving changes the game state. It's a different player to move for a start.

MARattigan

Your second sentence is correct. Your first sentence is incorrect in standard game theoretic terms. You're confusing "game state" with "game theoretic value". In a normally played version of chess without the 50/75M, 3/5R, agreed draw and resignation rules there are not 3 game states; there are around 4.8x10^44.

MARattigan

Another Grock of sh*te.

MARattigan

From https://medium.com/understanding-games/the-game-state-f57e3e512bf7

A game state refers to the current configuration of a game at a given point in time. It includes all of the information necessary to completely specify the game, such as the positions of all of the game pieces, the current score, the players’ turns, and any other relevant variables. The game state can change over time as the game progresses and actions are taken.

In some games, the game state may also include information about past events and actions that have taken place, as this can affect the current state of the game and the available options for future moves. Game state considerations are ever-present in all game design and in the development of artificial intelligence algorithms in video games.

In a board game like chess, the game state at any given point includes the positions of all of the pieces on the board, the players’ turns, and any special conditions or rules that may be in effect (such as en passant captures or castling).

If by "Fairytale time is OVER!" you mean you're going to stop posting screeds of crap from Grock - thank God for that!

Elroch
MARattigan wrote:

Your second sentence is correct. Your first sentence is incorrect in standard game theoretic terms. You're confusing "game state" with "game theoretic value". In a normally played version of chess without the 50/75M, 3/5R, agreed draw and resignation rules there are not 3 game states; there are around 4.8x10^44.

AI's are quite easily led. This is useful when they have gone wrong and you need to hold their silicon hands a bit, but it also means if you put garbage in, they sometimes generate compatible garbage.

Elroch
MARattigan wrote:

@Elroch

Don't blame it on the long day. You've never been able to say anything sensible at any time.

Strange incorrect addressee there!

Looking back, it looks like you were responding to @Optimissed post #19319.

MARattigan

Bit embarrassing. Sorry about that. It's been a (cough) long day.

BombCraft
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

AI image

MARattigan
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

Debating Chess game theory with Grok.

...

I am smarter then GROK!!!!!!!

...

But if you're credulous enough to believe those figures, not much.

MARattigan
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
....

So at depth 33 in the example, and within the search horizon for the mate in 13. Stockfish misses the mate in 26 plys.

Line
4k3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish dev-20250213-fa6c30af:

1.Nh3 b5 e6 c6 4.Qd3 a5 b4 6.Nd2 Kf8 7.Rg1 f6 Ke8 axb4 g5 11.Ne4 h6 Kf7 13.Nd6+ Kg8 14.Qg6+ Kh8
 Depth: 33/51 :37 20300MN
 White is clearly winning.
 +- ()
(, )

I mated in 11 when I tried it against SF17, but I haven't tried to prove it.

Did you prove mate in 13?

MARattigan

As I said, I didn't try to prove it, but SF is obviously not to be trusted as you already showed.

It should be possible to do it by hand in a couple of hours or three. I don't know how long the mate solver would take. M11 might well be wrong.