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Criticism of Chess.com University Prodigy Program

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Pawnpusher3

For those reading: This is a long post and I hope that you will take the time to read it. However, if not, the general theme of the post covers flaws in the mindset of the chess.com university prodigy program- which, although with its merits – still sees its fair share of struggles as well.

What does it take to improve? Well, chess is one of the most complex games known to man, so it is truly hard to pinpoint this. Every player is also different, so no one set method will really help every player improve. Whereas I might need to work on developing my opening theory, “Charlie” might need to work on developing his endgame. It is true that all players can likely improve in all phases of the game, but for many, the greatest improvement will come simply by focusing on one’s greatest weakness and building it to a point where it no longer hinders progress in the rest of one’s progress.

Many people would argue that in order to do this, one can do many things. For starters, one can simply play many games, analyze their losses, and develop their game as suggested by the analysis. However, some players recognize that they cannot pinpoint their own weaknesses/errors. The key here for many players is to either a) resort to a computer/chess engine (not the best plan, as the computer cannot provide reasoning for its analysis) or b) resort to a chess coach who can precisely pick out what is going wrong, show a student how to fix it, and then make sure that the student fixes the problem. Clearly, I sound like I endorse the idea of coaching here- which I do- which should make you wonder why I am not endorsing a program such as the prodigy program offered here on chess.com.

What a chess coach does that the prodigy program simply cannot is provide a specialized training regimen for a specific student. As stated above, every student/chess player is different and needs to be taught in different ways. Coaches that teach students to be cookie-cutter players are the coaches that ruin potentially great chess players around the world. IM Josh Waitzkin, a chess prodigy who was supposedly the next Bobby Fischer, had his love of the game ruined by Dvoretsky, who suggested that he continuously alter his style to be more Karpovian. His learning style asked almost the exact opposite of this- and Dvoretsky’s style ruined his love for the game. However, many coaches can provide a specialized learning program unique to students, which is exactly what improving players need. The prodigy program- which is aimed at building numerous students up all at once, simply cannot provide this as it is teaching too many players who all have different chess and learning styles at once. Therefore, it is resulting in cookie cutter players – players who will surely find that their love for the innate nature of the game has diminished by the time that they “finish” the program.

You might also be wondering why I put finish in quotations above. Well, the prodigy program makes the claim that a student participating in the program for 5 years will attain master level status. Doing the math out, 12 hours per month * 12 months per year * 5 years, a student will have completed 720 hours of study (should a student consistently take the time to attend and watch all sessions). Many psychologists argue that in order to master any skill it takes well over 10,000 hours on average. This, of course, holds the same for chess and may perhaps be an understatement due to the complexity of the game. Without any evidence to substantiate this claim, I find it hard to rationalize why any individual should dish out 9,000 US dollars for education led by a player who fails to hold the master title himself and claims he can help transform the “average Joe” chess player into a master in 5 years.

Now, as I finish up my argument against the program, I would like to say a few things of note. First and foremost, I strongly respect Mr. Joshi for taking the time to help put together a program with such great intentions. I believe that players who participate do have a great chance to improve and surely will with the help of all the staff of the chess.com university. Secondly, I also want to say that by no means will participation in a program like this actually lead to a diminished love for the game – however, I am just putting out the idea that it could – as seen with many great chess players of the past. Finally, I want to clarify that it is not impossible for a player to master chess after 720 hours of study (many brilliant children can) – however, it is unlikely and as many great coaches (such as Dan Heisman) have said – we simply cannot guarantee how much you will improve in a given time.

All the best,

 

Pawnpusher3

Pawnpusher3
bb_gum234 wrote:

Not that I disagree with your main conclusions, but a few counterpoints:

While the fastest short term improvement involves studying your weakest area, in the long term most students will have to improve every area of their game to reach master level. You may not begin with your weak point, but it's not wasted time, and it doesn't rule out improving your weakness later in the program.

The efficacy of a good coach isn't itself a point against any other method.

While I agree 12 hours a month seems wholly inadequate, the 10,000 hours to reach mastery idea didn't (AFAIK) define mastery. It could be the case that "mastery" to them would be a 1500 equivalent. Or a 2500 equivalent. It seems too convenient to believe that their "mastery" is equivalent to a NM or FM title.

Thanks for responding bb_gum234. 

In response to what you have said- your first counterpoint is very valid. However, when players hit plateaus, it is easy to lose drive for the game which is one of the key aspects needed for improvement. If a player loses drive due to his weaknesses not being addressed, then improvement will never be attained (even though the student's knowledgebase will be increasing). 

My comment about the efficacy of a good coach isn't in itself a criticism of the program. However, a good coach might only be slightly more expensive than this program (10 hours for perhaps 200$) and definitely more beneficial (as it will be personalized). 

Although I don't remember specifically from what book (sorry for that), my friend taking sociology specifically showed me a paragraph relating the 10,000 hour concept to chess because she knew I love the game. I can't attest to the accuracy of the source (I didn't read the book), but I can attest to what was said there. 

taffy76

I agree that 720 hours of chess study is unlikely to make someone a master level player, so I can only assume that the Prodigy Program assigns 'homework' in addition to the lessons?

AsclepiustheKing

Took me four years to get my playing strength to where it is now and my rating still hasn't even caught up. I looked at the program when it started and thought "they're just going to hand me bull". So I didn't bother.

VLaurenT

I personnally don't believe in this program, but I haven't attended. I think it would be better to get feedback from people who have followed it, preferably for a couple of months.

totalnovice12

Well over the course of 5 years, short amounts of study will build into somewhat of a mastery of a subject. If you honestly care about it, your mind will develop subconsciously (i am sure many people have experienced this with something or another at some point). But even at that, 720 does sound like an awful small amount of pure hours spent to achieve mastery.

Secondly, I think computer analysis is very helpful to developing one's game. For example, I will take stockfish and analyze some games after I play them and basically any half point jump or more I will look into the moves (as these are fairly big errors--for now minor errors are outperformed by tactics and blunders) Often I don't immediately see why a certain move is played but I will notice similar mistakes in other games and see the suggested moves following a similar motif (for example when one should try to advance and trade off certain pawns). Though I haven't ever recieved a concrete answer from stockfish of what I do wrong I think I still get a pretty good idea of what I've done.

InfiniteFlash

chess.com will go the distance to make a buck off you....this is a business after all

TheGreatOogieBoogie

"Coaches that teach students to be cookie-cutter players are the coaches that ruin potentially great chess players around the world. IM Josh Waitzkin, a chess prodigy who was supposedly the next Bobby Fischer, had his love of the game ruined by Dvoretsky, who suggested that he continuously alter his style to be more Karpovian. His learning style asked almost the exact opposite of this- and Dvoretsky’s style ruined his love for the game. "

How dare you besmirch Dvoretsky's great name!  That amazing coach has brought great success for many players such as Yusupov, Dolmatov, fedorov, Nana Alexandria, Shirov, and countless others.  Dvoretsky wanted to pump up Waitzkin's technical expertise, not impose a certain style on him.  The American chess scene is all about ratings, prizes, and isolated momentary successes and as a result people become too cautious and it gets passed down to the children.  If anything Dvoretsky would teach Waitzkin how to take creative risks while fighting for successes as fostering a depressing pragmatism isn't conducive for a child player's chess development.  

AKAL1

The above is imo true, but I think the general statement that generalized education doesn't work is also true.

I doubt 720 hours is enough to become master, but I do think there's an expectation to be studying outside the program if you want to make master.

Samantha212

I'm appalled at the above criticism to the prodigy program when clearly no one has taken part in it!! 

Like anything in life you get out of it what you put into it.  If you think just by watching and interacting with live classes is enough to absorb what you've been taught...you're wrong.  There's a lot of direction provided that needs to be reinforced afterward with many hours of work. 

Although everyone is entitled to their opinion, yours is not based on any personal experience but instead conjecture and assumptions.

BTW - Mr. Joshi may not have a Master's title but he is responsible for assembling a team of Masters - GM, IM, FM who offer indepth insight and are accessible to students.  Certainly for the cost it provides value to players world wide who are diligently working on their game. 

VLaurenT

Hello Samantha, it sounds like you?ve followed the program yourself and are happy with it :-)

As stated earlier, I'm not a member and don't know the contents, but I'm curious what justifies the very high price, as it looks like there's no personal instruction included. So it's unclear what the program offers that you can't find in books and videos

Samantha212

The difference is I don't see it as a high price. I see it as a bargain price.  What would it cost you to pay a coach for 12 hours of lessons a month?  Plus game analysis, monthly simuls with Masters, instructors who are accessible to students, instruction from guest GMs and the support of other students all from the comfort of your home.  A whole lot more than $150 a month.  Plus It offers direction and focus.  Sure you can watch other videos on similar topics to reinforce the theme of the instruction taught that month but step by step the gaps in your chess knowledge are being filled in.  It takes work and a commitment to improve your game. 

You know as we all know chess is an intricate game that requires insight to gain an advantage.  That's why we watch videos and read articles...to get a leg up on an opening, a tactic or an endgame.   Frustrating as heck and yet deeply satisfying. (Does that make us sadists?) The Prodigy Program offers a team of instuctors who  teach openings, tactics and endgames, offer direction and work hard to provide a chess education that  will give their students a "LEG UP".    In addition, you're sent a video copy of all the classes to review again or for the first time if you're not able to attend a live class. 

You can't repeat a lesson with a live chess coach or recapture what you've reviewed a month later or a year later. 

There are menus in restraurants to satisfy different pallets.  This may or may not be to your liking but please don't put it down before you've tried it.

You should consider joining.  It may be just what you're looking for.

VLaurenT

But there are no individual lessons, are there ? I mean the 12-hours video is like some interactive group feed, or is there some actual analysis of your OTB games at some point one-to-one ?

chessbased

How dare you besmirch Dvoretsky's great name!

Unforgivable offence.I daresay

SilentKnighte5

In a couple of years, some people will need exit counseling.  Already looking like a cult.

KairavJoshi

The pawncrusher strikes back. It's been awhile :-)

As I've told you before, the Prodigy Program offers far more than what you summarize. I'll respond to your claims and statements one by one.

"...the general theme of the post covers flaws in the mindset of the chess.com university prodigy program- which, although with its merits – still sees its fair share of struggles as well."

Response: You are not in a position to make this claim from any angle. This is speculation without any knowledge of the Prodigy Program.

 

"What does it take to improve? Well, chess is one of the most complex games known to man, so it is truly hard to pinpoint this. Every player is also different, so no one set method will really help every player improve. Whereas I might need to work on developing my opening theory, “Charlie” might need to work on developing his endgame. It is true that all players can likely improve in all phases of the game, but for many, the greatest improvement will come simply by focusing on one’s greatest weakness and building it to a point where it no longer hinders progress in the rest of one’s progress."

Response: Indeed chess is a complex game. Physics is a complex field in college too. An undergraduate physics degree program will involve instruction on actual physics plus instruction on math, scientific writing, computer programming etc. Yes, Charlie may be good at math whereas John may be skilled at writing. But you know what? Both have to get good at writing and math to succeed in the physics degree program and go on to be excellent graduate school students or employees.

So, Jake may need to work on endgames, whereas Timmy will need to brush up his tactics. But you know what? All students will need to substantially improve at all areas of the game to reach their goal.

The Prodigy Program offers students feedback as a group during class and individually through one-on-one game analysis and exams so they can also work on improving their weaknesses as they continue improving all areas of their game.

 

"What a chess coach does that the prodigy program simply cannot is provide a specialized training regimen for a specific student. As stated above, every student/chess player is different and needs to be taught in different ways. Coaches that teach students to be cookie-cutter players are the coaches that ruin potentially great chess players around the world. IM Josh Waitzkin, a chess prodigy who was supposedly the next Bobby Fischer, had his love of the game ruined by Dvoretsky, who suggested that he continuously alter his style to be more Karpovian. His learning style asked almost the exact opposite of this- and Dvoretsky’s style ruined his love for the game. However, many coaches can provide a specialized learning program unique to students, which is exactly what improving players need. The prodigy program- which is aimed at building numerous students up all at once, simply cannot provide this as it is teaching too many players who all have different chess and learning styles at once. Therefore, it is resulting in cookie cutter players – players who will surely find that their love for the innate nature of the game has diminished by the time that they “finish” the program."


Response: The Prodigy Program was created by Chess.com's best-selling and highest demanded coach with assistance from many top chess coaches. The Waitzkin-Dvoretsky example is not relevant for students in the Prodigy Program. Students play with their own style with extra layers of understanding they gain through our program.

The specialized learning program many coaches create for students are aimed at casual learners. In most cases, these players are not trying to quickly master chess. They simply want to improve. However, in order to improve as quickly as they can through the Prodigy Program, one-on-one coaching with a world-class coach would be tremendously expensive.

Our students, like Samantha above, seem to start loving the game even more after joining our program.


"You might also be wondering why I put finish in quotations above. Well, the prodigy program makes the claim that a student participating in the program for 5 years will attain master level status. Doing the math out, 12 hours per month * 12 months per year * 5 years, a student will have completed 720 hours of study (should a student consistently take the time to attend and watch all sessions). Many psychologists argue that in order to master any skill it takes well over 10,000 hours on average. This, of course, holds the same for chess and may perhaps be an understatement due to the complexity of the game. Without any evidence to substantiate this claim, I find it hard to rationalize why any individual should dish out 9,000 US dollars for education led by a player who fails to hold the master title himself and claims he can help transform the “average Joe” chess player into a master in 5 years."

Response: My articles regarding the Prodigy Program are usually thorough but I cannot guarantee how well you will be able to read them. You are equating the Prodigy Program to 720 hours of study and comparing that with the 10,000 figure. This is wrong. We have over 720 hours of live lessons in the program but that is only one method of study. We have 720 hours of top, live instruction, which would cost $57,600 with a top coach who charges $80/hr. In our program, we also offer guided study. Students are assigned 10 hours of homework each week. This amounts to 2,600 hours of guided study and actually even more than that as students must review the material. Plus, students play chess and review their own games, which counts as study too. Plus, students get full email support with our team. Sure, this adds up to less than 10,000 hours of study but there is nothing special about this figure. All it means is that if you spend a lot of time on something and work very hard, you will get good at it. Did you also know that among our team is former world #4 player Alexei Shirov? Also among our team we have GM Erwin l'Ami, former USCF President and #1 blitz player GM Maxim Dlugy, former U.S. National Champion and world famous coach GM Alex Yermolinsky, and many more top coaches? No one has to commit to the full program. It is simply $150/month for however many months the student decides to stay enrolled. If they stay with us for five years, yes $9,000 is the figure, which is a bargain. The non-master player who leads this program has no time to get that master title. However, that non-master player is wise to create and manage a team of brilliant top chess players who together can design and teach higher level material to advanced students which this non-master player should not teach. :)


"Now, as I finish up my argument against the program, I would like to say a few things of note. First and foremost, I strongly respect Mr. Joshi for taking the time to help put together a program with such great intentions. I believe that players who participate do have a great chance to improve and surely will with the help of all the staff of the chess.com university. Secondly, I also want to say that by no means will participation in a program like this actually lead to a diminished love for the game – however, I am just putting out the idea that it could – as seen with many great chess players of the past. Finally, I want to clarify that it is not impossible for a player to master chess after 720 hours of study (many brilliant children can) – however, it is unlikely and as many great coaches (such as Dan Heisman) have said – we simply cannot guarantee how much you will improve in a given time."

Response: My prior experience indicates otherwise regarding that respect comment but that's not our topic of discussion here. Are you spending your valuable time creating this forum for just "putting out the idea" or do you have any other intentions? I apologize for being blunt but let's talk wisdom for a moment. Certainly, you have something at the back of your mind. Would someone write a criticism of ChessBase without ever having tried it? What about writing criticism of a movie you've never seen? If memory serves me right, I believe you are a young college student searching for a few chess students for college cash and by posting about the Prodigy Program, which is tremendously popular on Chess.com, you expect to get many reads and hope some of them convert to students.

Listen, I have nothing against you for wanting to grow as a chess coach. I wish nothing but the best for you in your life and in your career but I would prefer that you stop making false evaluations of my programs.

I hope this helps clear some things up for you as well as others in the forum.

Learn more about the Prodigy Program here:

http://www.chess.com/blog/GeniusKJ/prodigy-program---august-2015-registration-open


Cheers!

Kairav Joshi

President

Chess.com University / Chess University, Inc.



X_PLAYER_J_X

In comment to GeniusKJ responses to Pawnpusher3


First Response:  Force mate in 3


Second Response: Force mate in 2


Third Response: Force mate in 1


Fourth Response: Check Mate


Fifth Response: Priceless! For some things money can't buy for everything esle Chess.com University

HAHAHHAHAHA

 

KairavJoshi

@uscftigherprowl,

You mentioned USCF. Here are comments from former USCF President about the Prodigy Program:

http://www.chess.com/blog/GeniusKJ/chesscom-universitys-prodigy-program-has-started---comments-from-gm-dlugy

 

A few students have posted comments here if you're interested:

http://www.chess.com/blog/GeniusKJ/prodigy-program---january-2015-registration-open?page=2

 

Actually, I am happy to have come across your comment.  Recently, I haven't done something which I should be doing - asking students to post testimonials. I will ask them to do that for me this week.

There isn't an absence of support by students. They simply didn't come across this forum. If I email out this link to students, you would get what you're looking for.

Trash_Aesthetic

If somebody is a prodigy he or she should focus efforts away from chess

KairavJoshi

@Trash_Aesthetic,

Most of our students are actually adults. And the young ones we have in class are very smart and energetic. They excel at chess and their school work too. :)