Current average chess rating

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An_asparagusic_acid
llama44 wrote:

I had some fun trying to model a chess site's rating distribution with python... it also gave me incentive to learn python (I knew almost nothing before I started this).

Sample graph, 100,000 random users generated in a normal distribution.

 

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I tried lots of different settings, but generally kept the pool of players below 10,000... because when that many players play a few 100 games each it takes a while to get your results.

I learned something interesting.

The average rating of a pool heavily depends on how quickly you can get new users to their correct rating... and I mean 0 games (initial rating is correct) is much better than requiring 5 or 10 games (for example).

Why?

Because after the new player burns through their RD, and everyone's RD starts to stabilize, then as far as the average is concerned, the player's real strength doesn't matter anymore. They can be a GM or a noob, but after the RD stabilizes the number of points they gain or lose in every game is roughly equal to the number of points their opponents gain and lose...

... which means at that point the average rating stays the same (with surprisingly little movement).

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This means the average moves up when your high RD players are staying too high for too long.

And the average moves down when your high RD players are staying too low for too long.

I mean, it's obvious after you hear it, but I didn't realize it at first, and I didn't realize how important it is to quickly move a player to their correct rating... for example bad days, good days, widening or narrowing the rating range of opponents... it simply doesn't matter after players are gaining and losing roughly the same amount. The pool's average gets stuck in place.

I thought that was pretty interesting.

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Sample output

At the bottom you see one of the new players was 2100 strength.
But his first rating on the site was 1950.
His highest rating was 2100, so that's good, he got to the correct rating.
His current rating is lower, but that's ok, I have it so people under and over preform.
He played 40 games, winning 26.

(Since the rating math doesn't distinguish between 2 draws and 1 win + 1 loss, I don't deal with them at all).

 

 

 

2 randomly selected players. One from the initial group and one from the joining group, and then:

 

2 random players selected, and then:
First is first rating when joining the site
Base is the player's true strength. Their results are based on this +/- an amount
Curr is current rating
High is highest rating
Lowest is lowest rating
Games is total number of games played
W is total number of wins for that player
L is total number of losses for that player

The rating is deflating for a reason that you did not mention, which is improvement. Let's say the average person starts at 600, but over the course of a year gains 300 rating point's. This will cause the average to go down, because the 300 rating point's came from other players, which decreases the average rating. Since most new players are new to chess they will improve 100s of rating point's. On a large scale, this will decrease the average rating.

llama44
An_asparagusic_acid wrote:

The rating is deflating for a reason that you did not mention, which is improvement. Let's say the average person starts at 600, but over the course of a year gains 300 rating point's. This will cause the average to go down, because the 300 rating point's came from other players, which decreases the average rating. Since most new players are new to chess they will improve 100s of rating point's. On a large scale, this will decrease the average rating.

That's part of what made this interesting... as far as the site's average is concerned, improvement doesn't matter! If someone improves from 600 to 2600 and it takes them 100 games to do it or 10000 games the average stays the same (if the RD is basically the same for everyone).

I had players play at random, meaning after a while everyone has about the same number of games, same RD. (the maths details of Glicko were more complicated so I used a modified Elo, but same idea).

But yes, your individual rating can be pushed lower because someone else improves. This happens because the points have to come from somewhere. If someone improves from 600 to 2600 after their high RD period then the group as a whole has to pay them (so to speak) 2000 points, but because the group "pays" the average stays the same (same total number of players and same total number of points).

An_asparagusic_acid
llama44 wrote:
An_asparagusic_acid wrote:

The rating is deflating for a reason that you did not mention, which is improvement. Let's say the average person starts at 600, but over the course of a year gains 300 rating point's. This will cause the average to go down, because the 300 rating point's came from other players, which decreases the average rating. Since most new players are new to chess they will improve 100s of rating point's. On a large scale, this will decrease the average rating.

That's part of what made this interesting... as far as the site's average is concerned, improvement doesn't matter! If someone improves from 600 to 2600 and it takes them 100 games to do it or 10000 games the average stays the same (if the RD is basically the same for everyone).

I had players play at random, meaning after a while everyone has about the same number of games, same RD. (the maths details of Glicko were more complicated so I used a modified Elo, but same idea).

But yes, your individual rating can be pushed lower because someone else improves. This happens because the points have to come from somewhere. If someone improves from 600 to 2600 after their high RD period then the group as a whole has to pay them (so to speak) 2000 points.

I would assume that the averege playing strength for each rating bracket has improved, because of improving players.

llama44

Sure, true ability can go up, but whether the system pays you rating points for it (so to speak) depends.

As a simple example, if everyone, overnight, improved 200 points worth of skill, then everyone's ratings would stay the same.

An_asparagusic_acid
llama44 wrote:

Sure, true ability can go up, but whether the system pays you rating points for it (so to speak) depends.

As a simple example, if everyone, overnight, improved 200 points worth of skill, then everyone's ratings would stay the same.

I heard that the uscf had a major deflation problem, because of all those juniors who quit in their teens.

llama44

Yeah, I'd heard that.

Interestingly, what I discovered (although I'm sure other's knew, I mean discovered for myself), is whether they stayed or left it doesn't matter (because when you deflate other people's rating you also deflate your own, so after the damage is done you can stay or quit). The best way to deflate other's ratings is be underrated after the provisional period... and since kids were improving via both USCF and non-USCF tournaments, this was probably widespread.

An_asparagusic_acid
llama44 wrote:

Yeah, I'd heard that.

Interestingly, what I discovered (although I'm sure other's knew, I mean discovered for myself), is whether they stayed or left it doesn't matter (because when you deflate other people's rating you also deflate your own, so after the damage is done you can stay or quit). The best way to deflate other's ratings is be underrated after the provisional period... and since kids were improving via both USCF and non-USCF tournaments, this was probably widespread.

Giving kids a higher minimum rd could slow down the deflation. I have heard that the minimum uscf rd value is quite high, so my idea might not work.

llama44

That would be kinda cool... you could even set like... some kind of standard. I'm not sure how... but if you had a standard then whenever it became deflated you could purposefully manipulate things to make it go up again.

If you tracked enough active tournament players across the country that might even be a pretty reliable standard.

Another interesting idea is improvement... can we argue that most tournament players are improving their skill? I mean, I know some are more casual than others, but at the very least they're gaining experience.

This means to improve your rating it's not enough to improve... you have to improve faster than the people around you... maybe this is negligible at most levels, but I bet elite players (maybe of any sport) are very aware of this day to day.

An_asparagusic_acid
llama44 wrote:

That would be kinda cool... you could even set like... some kind of standard. I'm not sure how... but if you had a standard then whenever it became deflated you could purposefully manipulate things to make it go up again.

If you tracked enough active tournament players across the country that might even be a pretty reliable standard.

Another interesting idea is improvement... can we argue that most tournament players are improving their skill? I mean, I know some are more casual than others, but at the very least they're gaining experience.

This means to improve your rating it's not enough to improve... you have to improve faster than the people around you... maybe this is negligible at most levels, but I bet elite players (maybe of any sport) are very aware of this day to day.

Since we have a lot of processing power, the uscf could potentially use much more complex(and accurate) rating system.

llama44

Hmm, I wonder how many employees the USCF has and what they're paid. I think it's mostly volunteers, and probably not very tech savvy. Just a guess.

An_asparagusic_acid
llama44 wrote:

Hmm, I wonder how many employees the USCF has and what they're paid. I think it's mostly volunteers, and probably not very tech savvy. Just a guess.

A 3rd party could use a generic algorithm to create a better rating formula, or they might even use a neural network* to make a formula.

* to run a neural network you will need a good GPU, which is not widely available.

Max_l30

The current average chess rating are based on your skill right.

I think the chess rating should be based on all your ratings and games altogether

Max_l30

The current average chess rating are based on your skill right.

I think the chess rating should be based on all your ratings and games altogether

 

Even tough the chess rating may just put you in different conditions

An_asparagusic_acid
Max_l30 wrote:

The current average chess rating are based on your skill right.

I think the chess rating should be based on all your ratings and games altogether

No offense, but I can't understand what you are trying to say.

nklristic

Have in mind that many people have joined recently. Most of them are novices , so it makes sense that average rating is lower now.

Max_l30

The rating for some people is low but in the time they have to increase it not keep getting it lower

Marie-AnneLiz
Saddled a écrit :

I also agree it's pretty low but I think another factor might be that many "ok" players start several new accounts which start off with the low ratings then end up playing other ok players who also have the low starting rating.  In other words I think a lot of decent players who may actually be about 1400 are in the pools of 1000 and 1200.  It is a total crap shoot the actual skill level of players I play anywhere between 1000 and 1500 I got an equal chance of getting obliterated by a1000 as I do of obliterating a1500.  I know, a 1500 rating is not good, but it should be more difficult than a1000.

I disagree,i never played anyone here that was rated 1250 or under that was better than 1250 elo.

Marie-AnneLiz
Saddled a écrit :

It's also wild that the"beginner" starting level is 1000.  I play "beginners"all the time in the real world.... They are not in the same class as1000 players here. I know 1000 isn't good, but these 1000 rated folks here ain't "beginner" ffs

I do agree that the most 950 to 1250 here are around 1250

Marie-AnneLiz
Haeferl a écrit :

 1600

The average adult tournament player in the USCF is rated around 1400.

1600 is really above average

llama44
An_asparagusic_acid wrote:
llama44 wrote:

Hmm, I wonder how many employees the USCF has and what they're paid. I think it's mostly volunteers, and probably not very tech savvy. Just a guess.

A 3rd party could use a generic algorithm to create a better rating formula, or they might even use a neural network* to make a formula.

* to run a neural network you will need a good GPU, which is not widely available.

I assume the formula itself is 100% fine. That's the pure math side of it.

The problem is the real world  You're trying to represent people's current skill with their past results. There will always be some amount of error.