Disgusting Video

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llama
crocodilestyle1 wrote:

if  you look at the work of Ada Lovelace, it is vastly beyond many mathematicians, even discrete mathematicians;  but still 170 years later young women are told technical subjects are not for them. 

Who is telling them this?

As far as I can tell, no one is saying this. Maybe 1 or two backward countries. Overwhelmingly women are told the opposite, and are being given opportunities.

Women don't preform as well for the same reason men preform worse... males are more represented on the extremes. Einsteins are more often male... and college drop outs, suicide victims, and drooling idiots are more often male.

Statistically, males are also more interested in STEM subjects as evidenced by the fact that countries with the most equality (see Scandinavia) have a higher disparity between genders in STEM fields. Meanwhile countries like Iran have the least.

The fact is no one is telling young girls math is not for them. If anything it's the opposite.

That doesn't mean there are historical injustices we can help correct by recognizing women who advanced their field. I'm all for that. I'm all for celebrating someone like Judit Polgar... but let's not pretend there are no female Kasparovs because of oppression. There are no female Kasparovs because, for example, according to Judit and Susan, the most talented Polgar sister was Sofia, and she quit before she was even a GM, and went into art.

DiogenesDue
llama wrote:

Judit is impressive, but not for the reason most people think heh.

Statistically females are more interested in people and less interested in things. So given a free choice, most of them will apply their talents outside of chess (and STEM fields).

Many liberals (and I'm  a liberal myself, just not a stupid one) want to pretend there is no difference between genders, so Judit's accomplishments weight on the side of equality.

But it's more the exception that proves the rule. She's amazing, and worth ranking in the legendary category, precisely because women aren't as predisposed to chess excellence. Not because they're less intelligent, but because of 2 things:

1: Males dominate the extremes. That means negative things too like suicide and low IQ

2: Women are statistically less interested in things and more interested in people

If your gender is statistically bad at chess, as the female gender is, it's not something to be upset over. It means you care about things like people.

You're arguing it both ways...either women are just "statistically uninterested" in chess, or women are "bad" at chess.  It can't be both.

Polgar proved it's the former, not the latter.  If there were more interest from women, and more inclusivity from men, maybe you'd have 1500-ish women who played at 2500+ rating (around the current number of GMs worldwide), and there would be women in the top 10 all the time.  Instead there are 1200-1500 men at 2500+ and 12 women rated that high. 

You can posit that women would not want to play because they are more interested in people, not things.  But that's a cop-out, and just another way of saying that women don't value anything but relationships (and by extension, children/family).  Statistically a woman may value these things by default more than the average man, but there is plenty of overlap in that Venn diagram, and women are as multi-dimensional as men are.

Nobody will know how many women might be potential chess champions until the sociological hurdles are pretty much gone.  Pretty much the same way that nobody will know how many men actually would like the color pink if they were not brought up in a world that tells them pink isn't a masculine color and they will be seen as weak if they wear it/like it.  Being dismissed by ton of men ("your brain is not built right for playing chess, but don't fret, it's just statistics, nothing about you personally") and being hit on by another ton of men when playing chess as a woman is a pretty big disincentive to participate, and the higher your ranking goes, the more the ratio shifts from being hit on (which at least is flattering) to being dismissed in every tournament you play in.  When a woman gets to 2500 rating, they are looking at the being 1 a hundred every time they choose to venture outside the women's events.  So, it's no big mystery why they do not.

P.S. I put my ex-wife through school to become a microbiologist, and today she is working for the company that makes the best Covid-19 test on the market.  Microbiology was her natural leaning in terms of the degree she wanted to go after.  It's much less nature and lot more nurture in terms of why women fall into the "liberal arts" and "people person" professions.  Women tend to go where they feel safe and accepted...hey...just like men do.  Like all human beings do.  The difference is that men generally feel safe and accepted almost anywhere.  It's just the evolution of society.  Women still have to worry every time they walk through a deserted parking lot...it's a completely different mindset, but it's *not* a completely different brain wink.png.

llama
btickler wrote:

You're arguing it both ways...either women are just "statistically uninterested" in chess, or women are "bad" at chess.  It can't be both.

Why not?

It probably is both as evidenced from statistics, both FIDE rating data and personality tests.

And remember it's not that women are "bad" at chess... men are much worse... but men are also much better. This is what it means to have higher representation at the extremes of the bell curve.

Statistically, if you look at some FIDE data dump posted on here years ago, the average male and average female player are basically identical in rating.

 

btickler wrote:

Polgar proved it's the former, not the latter. 

One person doesn't prove anything in either direction. One person can be an extremely small piece of evidence.

Even the Polgar patriarch agrees. After his success with his 3 daughters, he wanted to adopt some and do the same experiment (make them chess stars). His wife objected, and ultimately they didn't do this.

 

btickler wrote:

You can posit that women would not want to play because they are more interested in people, not things.  But that's a cop-out,

Not only is it not a cop out, it's one of the most verified results in all of psychology. You can hate the evidence as much as a climate science denier hates global warming, but it doesn't change what the best available, reliable, and vast amounts of data is telling us.

 

btickler wrote:

Statistically a woman may value these things by default more than the average man, but there is plenty of overlap

It's one whole standard deviation.

In other words a male who cares as much about people as the average female is in the 85th percentile for males.

A female who cares as much as the average male does for things like chess is in the 85th percentile for women.

Combine this with the fact that males score at the extremes (both higher and lower) on IQ tests and well... you get what we see today.

 

btickler wrote:

Pretty much the same way that nobody will know how many men actually would like the color pink if they were not brought in a world that tells them pink isn't a masculine color.

Pink was actually considered too manly a color to give to baby girls. The much more feminine blue was preferred for a long time.

Anyway, this is the old nature vs nurture.

Obviously there's both. Nothing is 100% a societal construct. Neither is it all genetics.

 

btickler wrote:

Being dismissed by ton of men ("your brain is not built right for playing chess, but don't fret, it's just statistics, nothing about you personally") and being hit on by another ton of men when playing chess as a woman is a pretty big disincentive to participate

Have you ever been to a chess tournament?

Do you see men hitting on women? Do you hear women complaining about being hit on?

It's rather comfortable to pretend there is no difference between the sexes, but I'm guessing you find the alternative disagreeable since you're making it a value judgement. Being good at chess, on average, an average of over 1 billion people, doesn't make those people better persons. Owning an X and Y chromosome as a human doesn't make me better than someone with XX.

Men are on average taller correct? Have more muscle mass? Engage in risker behavior? Have a shorter life expectancy?

It's just how it is. It doesn't make one better than the other.

llama
btickler wrote:

P.S. I put my ex-wife through school to become a microbiologist, and today she is working for the company that makes the best Covid-19 test on the market.  Microbiology was her natural leaning in terms of the degree she wanted to go after.  It's much less nature and lot more nurture in terms of why women fall into the "liberal arts" and "people person" professions.  Women tend to go where they feel safe and accepted...hey...just like men do.  Like all human beings do.  The difference is that men generally feel safe and accepted almost anywhere.  It's just the evolution of society.  Women still have to worry every time they walk through a deserted parking lot...it's a completely different mindset, but it's *not* a completely different brain .

I have an aunt who was a microbiologist on a short list for being nominated for a Nobel prize for her work in helping sequence the human genome. She's fking brilliant.

Hundreds of millions of women are brilliant.

I'm not saying STEM fields aren't for women. I'm saying there differences between the genders... and I'm not saying that as a value judgement.

I mean, maybe our memory of the atrocities of the 20th century are too near. Maybe we're not ready to hear things like this yet... and if society isn't ready, that's fine. We can be quiet about it for a while. Let a generation or two die off... but eventually it's better to go where the evidence leads.

llama
crocodilestyle1 wrote:
llama wrote:
crocodilestyle1 wrote:

if  you look at the work of Ada Lovelace, it is vastly beyond many mathematicians, even discrete mathematicians;  but still 170 years later young women are told technical subjects are not for them. 

Who is telling them this?

As far as I can tell, no one is saying this. Maybe 1 or two backward countries. Overwhelmingly women are told the opposite, and are being given opportunities.

Women don't preform as well for the same reason men preform worse... males are more represented on the extremes. Einsteins are more often male... and college drop outs, suicide victims, and drooling idiots are more often male.

Statistically, males are also more interested in STEM subjects as evidenced by the fact that countries with the most equality (see Scandinavia) have a higher disparity between genders in STEM fields. Meanwhile countries like Iran have the least.

The fact is no one is telling young girls math is not for them. If anything it's the opposite.

That doesn't mean there are historical injustices we can help correct by recognizing women who advanced their field. I'm all for that. I'm all for celebrating someone like Judit Polgar... but let's not pretend there are no female Kasparovs because of oppression. There are no female Kasparovs because, for example, according to Judit and Susan, the most talented Polgar sister was Sofia, and she quit before she was even a GM, and went into art.

 I am not entirely sure is it reasonable (or indeed safe) to suggest a correspondence between mathematical ability, gender and suicide.

I think you can say that men are more represented in STEM subjects due to weight of numbers, and I think that is what some people have drawn attention to in the video - the Polgar sisters deserve credit for attracting more women to the game...and as such (in the limited metric they use in the video) may elevate them above Keres or Nimzowich who everyone has read about in books.

From a personal perspective I now work in history (linguistics) which has a reasonable spread with regard to gender, but I entered academia  by way of chemistry and maths (specifically topology)...P.S. if that bends your mind, the Ancient Egyptian word for their nation was Kemet (=chemistry)...and I got involved in the chemistry of how the mummified their dead, and latterly their language.

Heh, chemist turned linguist, that's interesting.

I'm not saying math and suicide are related. I'm saying that some differences are PC and some are not.

If I say men are taller on average, no one cares.

If I say women are better at understanding others, or are more virtuous (prisons are filled with men), no one cares.

But if I bring up statistics like male mathematicians have contributed more than female mathematicians, then suddenly people want to twist themselves into knots.

There's more to life than being good at math, and averages don't determine individuals. I'm a male, but if I walk into a random building, you're sure to find any number of females taller than me, even though males are taller on average.

So stop hyperventilating... lol.

DiogenesDue
llama wrote:

Well, I lost my reply...thanks Chess.com for still not fixing your broken posting process that kills your post rather than letting you edit it and fix it.

Suffice to say, I disagree, and you're still copping out.  Your Einstein outlier argument is not nearly as applicable to chess, where studies show that work put in > natural talent.  I won't even go into the fact that any brilliant women's contribution to science prior to, say, 1900, would probably have not made it to the history books.  It would have been co-opted, or stolen, or dismissed until a man confirmed it wink.png.

Listing IQ statistics is not meaningful either, because IQ is a debunked concept at this point.  If you watch the BBC special on IQ and intelligence that Susan Polgar took part in, you'll see that she did not fare very well vs. a group of other "smart" people in a battery of tests...but what she kicked everyone's butt in was the spatial rotation test...you know, that very specific thing that women's brains statistically are worse at then men's brains?  She beat all the men at shooting baskets and pouring wine (I think those were the two) while wearing lenses that turned tester's vision upside down.  She attributed it to chess playing, where she had to visualize and do rotation of board positions in her head constantly.

Nurtured talent > natural talent in human endeavors, by a significant margin.  It beats out the inherent brain differential in men vs. other men with varying IQ (unless you take it to an extreme), and it beats out men vs. women anything-you-care-to-differentiate.

That's only a fraction of what I wrote, but anyway.

llama
btickler wrote:
llama wrote:

Well, I lost my reply...thanks Chess.com for still not fixing your broken posting process that kills your post rather than letting you edit it and fix it.

Suffice to say, I disagree, and you're still copping out.  Your Einstein outlier argument is not nearly as applicable to chess, where studies show that work put in > natural talent.  I won't even go into the fact that any brilliant women's contribution to science prior to, say, 1900, would probably have not made it to the history books.  It would have been co-opted, or stolen, or dismissed until a man confirmed it .

Listing IQ statistics is not meaningful either, because IQ is a debunked concept at this point.  If you watch the BBC special on IQ and intelligence that Susan Polgar took part in, you'll see that she did not fare very well vs. a group of other "smart" people in a battery of tests...but what she kicked everyone's butt in was the spatial rotation test...you know, that very specific thing that women's brains statistically are worse at then men's brains?  She beat all the men at shooting baskets and pouring wine (I think those were the two) while wearing lenses that turned tester's vision upside down.  She attributed it to chess playing, where she had to visualize and do rotation of board positions in her head constantly.

Nurtured talent > natural talent in human endeavors, by a significant margin.  It beats out the inherent brain differential in men vs. other men with varying IQ (unless you take it to an extreme), and it beats out men vs. women anything-you-care-to-differentiate.

That's only a fraction of what I wrote, but anyway.

Yeah, those are good points. I mean... not so much that IQ is "debunked" but the other stuff is fine, and I get what you're saying.

Certainly starting from a young age and working hard has the most impact by far.

At some point you have to account for the fact that even though the average ratings are very close to equal, the best women are 200 points below the best men. Participation rates are often cited, and that makes sense, but again goes back to what I was saying about how when people have a choice, they don't choose equally. More men choose chess.

KovenFan
crocodilestyle1 wrote:
llama wrote:
crocodilestyle1 wrote:
llama wrote:
crocodilestyle1 wrote:

if  you look at the work of Ada Lovelace, it is vastly beyond many mathematicians, even discrete mathematicians;  but still 170 years later young women are told technical subjects are not for them. 

Who is telling them this?

As far as I can tell, no one is saying this. Maybe 1 or two backward countries. Overwhelmingly women are told the opposite, and are being given opportunities.

Women don't preform as well for the same reason men preform worse... males are more represented on the extremes. Einsteins are more often male... and college drop outs, suicide victims, and drooling idiots are more often male.

Statistically, males are also more interested in STEM subjects as evidenced by the fact that countries with the most equality (see Scandinavia) have a higher disparity between genders in STEM fields. Meanwhile countries like Iran have the least.

The fact is no one is telling young girls math is not for them. If anything it's the opposite.

That doesn't mean there are historical injustices we can help correct by recognizing women who advanced their field. I'm all for that. I'm all for celebrating someone like Judit Polgar... but let's not pretend there are no female Kasparovs because of oppression. There are no female Kasparovs because, for example, according to Judit and Susan, the most talented Polgar sister was Sofia, and she quit before she was even a GM, and went into art.

 I am not entirely sure is it reasonable (or indeed safe) to suggest a correspondence between mathematical ability, gender and suicide.

I think you can say that men are more represented in STEM subjects due to weight of numbers, and I think that is what some people have drawn attention to in the video - the Polgar sisters deserve credit for attracting more women to the game...and as such (in the limited metric they use in the video) may elevate them above Keres or Nimzowich who everyone has read about in books.

From a personal perspective I now work in history (linguistics) which has a reasonable spread with regard to gender, but I entered academia  by way of chemistry and maths (specifically topology)...P.S. if that bends your mind, the Ancient Egyptian word for their nation was Kemet (=chemistry)...and I got involved in the chemistry of how the mummified their dead, and latterly their language.

Heh, chemist turned linguist, that's interesting.

I'm not saying math and suicide are related. I'm saying that some differences are PC and some are not.

If I say men are taller on average, no one cares.

If I say women are better at understanding others, or are more virtuous (prisons are filled with men), no one cares.

But if I bring up statistics like male mathematicians have contributed more than female mathematicians, then suddenly people want to twist themselves into knots.

There's more to life than being good at math, and averages don't determine individuals. I'm a male, but if I walk into a random building, you're sure to find any number of females taller than mhe, even though males are taller on average.

So stop hyperventilating... lol.

Ahh it is very sweet that because you don't understand the nuance of the the people disagree with you, you feel you need to go on that attack - it's OK, I think you'll find most people here are versed with basic psychology, so we won't hold it against you. We will of course judge you, but our judgements will be outside of your understanding, so why should they concern you?

I explained very clearly how chemistry lead me into the study of Egyptian, and thus onto linguistics (I studied at Oxford university, where a study of classical languages was a prerequisite for just about any subject....I am very sorry if your red brick, polytechnic or below did not make that a clear point) as an accomplished student of Ancient languages I was drawn to the chemistry used by the ancient Egyptian, in the preservation of their dead.

I am also amused by how defensive you get about mathematics, you don't like that being associated with intelligence do you? ...do you perchance know anything about (n+1) dimension manifolds? S - Cobordism? Don't tell me you'd let a mere historian know more about maths than you!?

I'm just a ficko linguist...,.me no nofing about about spacial topology.....it is u who are the eggspert on everywefing academical like.

He never attacked you but I have a feeling you just wanted to tell us you studied at Oxford lol

llama
crocodilestyle1 wrote:
llama wrote:
crocodilestyle1 wrote:
llama wrote:
crocodilestyle1 wrote:

if  you look at the work of Ada Lovelace, it is vastly beyond many mathematicians, even discrete mathematicians;  but still 170 years later young women are told technical subjects are not for them. 

Who is telling them this?

As far as I can tell, no one is saying this. Maybe 1 or two backward countries. Overwhelmingly women are told the opposite, and are being given opportunities.

Women don't preform as well for the same reason men preform worse... males are more represented on the extremes. Einsteins are more often male... and college drop outs, suicide victims, and drooling idiots are more often male.

Statistically, males are also more interested in STEM subjects as evidenced by the fact that countries with the most equality (see Scandinavia) have a higher disparity between genders in STEM fields. Meanwhile countries like Iran have the least.

The fact is no one is telling young girls math is not for them. If anything it's the opposite.

That doesn't mean there are historical injustices we can help correct by recognizing women who advanced their field. I'm all for that. I'm all for celebrating someone like Judit Polgar... but let's not pretend there are no female Kasparovs because of oppression. There are no female Kasparovs because, for example, according to Judit and Susan, the most talented Polgar sister was Sofia, and she quit before she was even a GM, and went into art.

 I am not entirely sure is it reasonable (or indeed safe) to suggest a correspondence between mathematical ability, gender and suicide.

I think you can say that men are more represented in STEM subjects due to weight of numbers, and I think that is what some people have drawn attention to in the video - the Polgar sisters deserve credit for attracting more women to the game...and as such (in the limited metric they use in the video) may elevate them above Keres or Nimzowich who everyone has read about in books.

From a personal perspective I now work in history (linguistics) which has a reasonable spread with regard to gender, but I entered academia  by way of chemistry and maths (specifically topology)...P.S. if that bends your mind, the Ancient Egyptian word for their nation was Kemet (=chemistry)...and I got involved in the chemistry of how the mummified their dead, and latterly their language.

Heh, chemist turned linguist, that's interesting.

I'm not saying math and suicide are related. I'm saying that some differences are PC and some are not.

If I say men are taller on average, no one cares.

If I say women are better at understanding others, or are more virtuous (prisons are filled with men), no one cares.

But if I bring up statistics like male mathematicians have contributed more than female mathematicians, then suddenly people want to twist themselves into knots.

There's more to life than being good at math, and averages don't determine individuals. I'm a male, but if I walk into a random building, you're sure to find any number of females taller than me, even though males are taller on average.

So stop hyperventilating... lol.

Ahh it is very sweet that because you don't understand the nuance of the the people disagree with you, you feel you need to go on that attack - it's OK, I think you'll find most people here are versed with basic psychology, so we won't hold it against you. We will of course judge you, but our judgements will be outside of your understanding, so why should they concern you?

I explained very clearly how chemistry lead me into the study of Egyptian, and thus onto linguistics (I studied at Oxford university, where a study of classical languages was a prerequisite for just about any subject....I am very sorry if your red brick, polytechnic or below did not make that a clear point) as an accomplished student of Ancient languages I was drawn to the chemistry used by the ancient Egyptian, in the preservation of their dead.

I am also amused by how defensive you get about mathematics, you don't like that being associated with intelligence do you? ...do you perchance know anything about (n+1) dimension manifolds? S - Cobordism? Don't tell me you'd let a mere historian know more about maths than you!?

I'm just a ficko linguist...,.me no nofing about about spacial topology.....it is u who are the eggspert on everywefing academical like.

Well, you're very proud of Oxford I suppose, and it seems I'm in the unfortunate position of having to inform you that no, Oxford's pedagogical whimsy of having their chemists study ancient languages isn't well known to the rest of the world.

As for mathematics... I had to check to make sure you were replying to me... I don't remember talking about mathematics (defensively or otherwise).

You seem pretty worked up though. Too bad I'm about to sleep. It would be fun to go back and forth with you a bit.

Richard_Hunter
llama wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

Caruana is kind of weirdly underrated though. He never really scores any spectacular victories.

What do you mean? His 7-0 run in the Sinquefiled tournament earned him a performance rating in the GOAT category.

Just because he doesn't impress the 12 year old Twitch community by playing garbage openings and tweeting inane hashtags doesn't mean he's not better than Nakamura at chess.

He's undoubtedly better than Nakamura at chess.

That was years ago. One tournament does not make you GOAT. Are you high?

llama

So to recap:

"Caruana never scores any spectacular victories"

"Yes he does"

"That was years ago. Are you high?"

---

Anyway, I didn't say he was GOAT, I said his performance rating was one of the best of all time... I mean, considering how it's relatively recent it probably is the #1.

llama
crocodilestyle1 wrote:

So you're not aware that the earliest texts in mathematics were written in ancient languages? You probably imagine that Newton's choice of Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica as a title for his seminal work was just an off hand stylistic choice.

I am not sure what it is like in the rest of the world, but at Oxford University (where I was an under graduate) and Cambridge University, where I gained a masters and defended my PhD - you speak Greek and Latin if you study anything, if only to be able to understand the banter.

And if you don't understand that s-cobrodism is a central theme of modern mathematics, I can only assume you are a very junior elementary school student - topology is on even the most basic mathematic curriculum.

I was just suggesting that there are many metrics you can use to differentiate between great people in any area; my guess is that because your knowledge of most spheres of endeavour is severely limited, you are not really qualified to comment on either the metric, or differentiation.

Eh, it's somehow not convincing. Little things like asking whether it "bends my mind" that you studied topology... why would it? It's one of the basic fields of mathematics, and now you end with "I was just suggesting that there are many metrics . . . [and] you are not really qualified to comment."

I'm not qualified in what? Topology? The topic is Naka and I've been listing fairly universal metrics for rating chess players throughout... oh I guess we moved on to talking about intelligence though. So your point is there are many different metrics for intelligence... of course provided that your elementary school covered s-cobrodism, whatever the hell that is, my guess is you're still stuck on topology for whatever reason.

So yeah, somehow it's not convincing. I don't mind arguing with people for fun, but you don't seem to be interested in it. Not sure how to explain it. Like you're trying too hard, or not trying hard enough... what are we even supposed to be arguing about? Maybe that's it. It's hard to argue when there's no topic. You want to throw out some academic buzz words like "Oxford" and "Topology" uh, ok, good job I guess.

llama

Maybe it's my fault for sending mixed signals? I was pretty drunk, and don't remember half the stuff I posted. Maybe I was pretty antagonistic and now I'm tired and not that into it... lol, so maybe it's my fault.

But yeah, I'd like something more along the lines of "Naka (or Judit) is great because ______" and then of course you can pepper the whole thing with "I studied at Oxford and you're much less intelligent than I am" but at the root of it has to be some kind of argument.

Richard_Hunter
llama wrote:

So to recap:

"Caruana never scores any spectacular victories"

"Yes he does"

"That was years ago. Are you high?"

---

Anyway, I didn't say he was GOAT, I said his performance rating was one of the best of all time... I mean, considering how it's relatively recent it probably is the #1.

I said Caruana was underrated. Nowhere did I say that Nakamura was better than him. The essence of my OP, if you'd bothered to read it, is that I find such an idea ridiculous.

llama
Richard_Hunter wrote:
llama wrote:

So to recap:

"Caruana never scores any spectacular victories"

"Yes he does"

"That was years ago. Are you high?"

---

Anyway, I didn't say he was GOAT, I said his performance rating was one of the best of all time... I mean, considering how it's relatively recent it probably is the #1.

I said Caruana was underrated. Nowhere did I say that Nakamura was better than him. The essence of my OP, if you'd bothered to read it, is that I find such an idea ridiculous.

Eh, you're right, sorry. I was arguing too much.

llama
crocodilestyle1 wrote:
llama wrote:
crocodilestyle1 wrote:

So you're not aware that the earliest texts in mathematics were written in ancient languages? You probably imagine that Newton's choice of Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica as a title for his seminal work was just an off hand stylistic choice.

I am not sure what it is like in the rest of the world, but at Oxford University (where I was an under graduate) and Cambridge University, where I gained a masters and defended my PhD - you speak Greek and Latin if you study anything, if only to be able to understand the banter.

And if you don't understand that s-cobrodism is a central theme of modern mathematics, I can only assume you are a very junior elementary school student - topology is on even the most basic mathematic curriculum.

I was just suggesting that there are many metrics you can use to differentiate between great people in any area; my guess is that because your knowledge of most spheres of endeavour is severely limited, you are not really qualified to comment on either the metric, or differentiation.

Eh, it's somehow not convincing. Little things like asking whether it "bends my mind" that you studied topology... why would it? It's one of the basic fields of mathematics, and now you end with "I was just suggesting that there are many metrics . . . [and] you are not really qualified to comment."

I'm not qualified in what? Topology? The topic is Naka and I've been listing fairly universal metrics for rating chess players throughout... oh I guess we moved on to talking about intelligence though. So your point is there are many different metrics for intelligence... of course provided that your elementary school covered s-cobrodism, whatever the hell that is, my guess is you're still stuck on topology for whatever reason.

So yeah, somehow it's not convincing. I don't mind arguing with people for fun, but you don't seem to be interested in it. Not sure how to explain it. Like you're trying too hard, or not trying hard enough... what are we even supposed to be arguing about? Maybe that's it. It's hard to argue when there's no topic. You want to throw out some academic buzz words like "Oxford" and "Topology" uh, ok, good job I guess.

You don't really express yourself very well do you? Three paragraphs and there are drips and drabs of a point across each of them, but no real semblance of an argument. And in the third paragraph you seem to be asking me to explain yourself on your behalf, I don't doubt I would be better at it than you are, but it is not something that would be generally encouraged in a debate where I am taking the contrary standpoint.

You do seem to fail to understand the basic formation of a debate - metrics would be how you gauge an achievement, so in an academic field that might be one axis, or you could plot points across many....I'm guessing asking you to plot a tangent in even one plane might be a little too much for you.

It does amuse me that because I work in the humanities that you imagine somehow mathematics would be alien to me, or vice versa.

(And s-cobordism is an equivalence betweens shapes....it is kind of like an assumption you have to make when you consider shapes that have more than 4 dimensions (more precisely +1 of n dimensions you are considering) .....very easy maths!! I do know that's funny even as I write it, but consider space and time...that's 4 dimensions without having to get too crazy.)

But I think it makes my point, I understand this nonsense, and I am a linguist....it is is just a skill; if you don't have any skills, maybe you don't understand it, but I do maths and ancient languages....I can't play table tennis, or box...I can do those two things....well maybe three.

Ok, well, I'm realizing your account is pretty new and maybe you're just trying your best to connect with people. I think it's neat you "do maths and ancient languages." Equivalence of shapes in n+1 dims sounds interesting. It's nice that you went to college too tongue.png

Even so, I think Nakamura is not a legend of chess.

In his defense, we can see in the video he rolled his eyes and shook his head as Levy talked him up into the God of Chess category... and what Naka said soon afterwards (stuff like he could have been world champ) might mean he was thinking of putting himself in the "great but unlucky" category... which isn't completely unfair. He probably buckled under the pressure of wanting to stroke his ego in front of an audience and put himself in "Legend" near the end.

But yeah... "Legend" is where he did put himself... and ahead of Caruana too.

congrandolor
llama wrote:
congrandolor wrote:

He beat a 2700 GM with the Boncloud, that means something...

In a garbage blitz game... who cares. 

«garbage» blitz online chess is the only chess in 2020...

llama

Oh, and I went to college too, so isn't that nice heh.

I do some recreational math and programming now and then.

I was looking into machine learning. It seems you can get started pretty easily online. I was reviewing basic probability because that's involved. One of my friends had a basic one working in MATLAB but I'm wondering if I can get some simple machine learning thing programmed in python.

So yeah, a lot of people have hobbies on this site... I mean, obviously chess is a hobby too... the way you talk about yours is a little antisocial... but at the end there you seemed to open up a little, so ok, I'll make a small attempt too.

llama
congrandolor wrote:
llama wrote:
congrandolor wrote:

He beat a 2700 GM with the Boncloud, that means something...

In a garbage blitz game... who cares. 

«garbage» blitz online chess is the only chess in 2020...

There were some good rapid games right? I think?

I haven't really been following it to be honest. I looked though some of the games in the Carlsen - Naka final because I'd already been trying to learn some of that theory... they seemed sufficiently complicated and insane heh.

I commented in a different topic about how Carlsen had chosen a move I decided was not as good... so I checked livebook and of course stockfish preferred Carlsen's move on depth 50 (or some absurd thing like this).

llama
crocodilestyle1 wrote:

 Or translated: "squeak squeak squeak, I'll just retract everything I said because I can't express myself in a manner that passes muster amongst the people I have chosen to debate."

Yeah, a tepid reply from me for sure, but... I don't know what it is... there's just something weird about you that makes you not annoying enough to fight with... if I had to guess it's because you never really attack me, you just talk about yourself. Sure you try to throw in a barb like "I bet you don't understand something as simple as s-cobordism, maybe you're a grade schooler" but then you turn around and brag about "I'm just a linguist, so I'm really smart because I understand s-cobordism"

And it's like... ok, you tried to insult me, but not only did you contradict yourself, you found a way to talk about yourself for 20 sentences straight so... it's hard for me to feel insulted.