Does rejecting a draw offer in equal position a sign of disrespect for opponents

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waffllemaster

I tried to cover all the times it's right with "and everything in between" but it may have come off too dismissive.  Of course very often the engine finds strong moves, even best moves.  And usually the eval is trustworthy.  For myself, in OTB play, I'm looking for something like >0.7 to be winning... well, I say that but of course even this just depends on the position.  Sometimes I need more, sometimes less.

waffllemaster

Also good point about practical chances.  I haven't been following this tournament but I remember one a while ago where internet crowd was screaming how could naka blunder in this endgame when it was a very deep move made for very practical reasons even though the engine didn't like it.  Of course I couldn't see this myself, there was Short doing commentary IIRC.

Rudis_Et_Vim
Oecleus wrote:
Rudis_Et_Vim wrote:

I guess this is the crowd that also hates Tampa Bay for blitzing Eli Manning in  a Victory formation, hates college football teams for running up scores and hates people who check with the nuts ... etc. 

I'm confused, what are you saying? that the posters here don't want people to win and want people to take the draw? if thats what you're saying it seems to me the opposite, everyone thinks its okay for him to play on.

if you're saying the opposite, that everyone here thinks that he should of taken the draw, how is that at all like college football teams running up the score? or like checking when you know you have the best cards (which is a really great strategy when you are playing against certain people)?

Some people were saying that whether or not you accept the draw should be based on rating, or whether you know how to draw etc. My point was that accepting, offering and rejecting a draw are apart of the rules and there is no disrespect in exercising your prejudice within the rules. 

Marljon

Players won by resignation, checkmate or by time. In equal position as you are playing with much time remaining against your opponent, will you accept draw offer?

Mishra_Sanjeev
Marljon wrote:

Players won by resignation, checkmate or by time. In equal position as you are playing with much time remaining against your opponent, will you accept draw offer?

wow !! u ain't getting my point !! consider the example of WCC 2013 anand vs carlsen game 3 .. anand offered a draw in deard draw position, butr carlsen refused !! the game was eventually drawn after 7 moves or so !! wasn't it disrespect of anand frm carlsen point !! 

Gyryth
BulgarianMachine wrote:

I always refuse draw offers.

 

Looking at your 100% win record, I'm not surprised. Just stay away from the tactics trainer. ;)

Kijiri

The ops original assesment that the game was objectively drawn is although correct slightly unnuanced. Although it was possible to hold it and nakamura lost because of a mistake, the game was objectively better for white because of a good vs bad minor piece. That a computer (and a human) can hold it with accurate play doesn't mean that the person with the better position shouldn't keep pressing until it's absolutely clear. Basically white was playing for two results. Playing on in positions like that where slight inaccuracies like the one Nakamura played is common now, since Carlsen again and again has proven that it's possible to pressure the opponent into losing. By refusing the draw offer Aronian clearly stated that he was pressing for a win and that's exactly what happened. I can see that Nakamura could be upset since he doesn't get a half point but wanting to win or trying to get the most out of a slightly better position can hardly be called unrespectful. Also the computer evaluation doesn't reflect properly that white was playing for two resulst with a static advantage.

Marljon

I'm asking and not contesting your point Mr. Sanjeev. Most people here addressed your question properly according to records and their experiences but ain't satisfied...wow.....

Mishra_Sanjeev
Marljon wrote:

I'm asking and not contesting your point Mr. Sanjeev. Most people here addressed your question properly according to records and their experiences but ain't satisfied...wow.....

wow !! its not that i am not satisfied , i was just keeping my question , which experts like you're answering well !! WOW

twinpeaks6

Seemingly equal and dead equal (unwinable) are two different things. At the 2800~ ish level even the most dry positions don't end up being draws - for instance, look at what Carlsen is capable of doing with "seemingly equal" positions. I regularly lose "completely equal" positions against Houdini in embarrassing fashion... I don't think it would be reasonable to say that Levon thinks that he is considerably better than Nak...Both have been in the top 10 for a while, both have played each other numerous times...All in all, I don't think there were any malicious intentions behind Levon's refusal to accept the draw offer - I think that he probably saw something and thus wanted to continue playing ... who knows, lol.

ponz111

Declining a offer of a draw is never a sign of disrespect.  Even if you have a  slight disadvantage it is not a sign of disrespect to decline a draw offer.

There are many possible reasons to decline an offer of a draw even if you have a disadvage in position or even losing.

It is silly to use the words respect and disrespect in these situations.

Marljon

I am 101% agree Mr. Ponz111, how about you Mr. Sanjeev?

KingIsLife

I personally think it's disrespect when black and white have queen + king/rook + king/bishops + king/knights + king/ pawn + king (if pawns are in the same column) or something similiar to this:

 



 No1 is going to win these unless some1 does something stupid. I think any other scenario will allow one side to win. 

csalami10

It is not disrespect. Equal positions should be played, there is big difference between equal and drawish position. 

ponz111
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

Yeah if a titled play offered me a draw I'd accept even if I (somehow) had a superior position.  Since I don't see that happening I never offer personally and would only agree if it's too obviously drawn or I'm in an inferior position and they somehow can't tell they're doing better. 

I think you are making a mistake. A titled player will offer you a draw if he/she thinks he is losing. 

In fact as a rule of thumb, if anyone offers you a draw, try to figure out why he thinks he is losing.

SocialPanda
ponz111 wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

Yeah if a titled play offered me a draw I'd accept even if I (somehow) had a superior position.  Since I don't see that happening I never offer personally and would only agree if it's too obviously drawn or I'm in an inferior position and they somehow can't tell they're doing better. 

I think you are making a mistake. A titled player will offer you a draw if he/she thinks he is losing. 

In fact as a rule of thumb, if anyone offers you a draw, try to figure out why he thinks he is losing.

In the book Grandmaster vs Amateur by Quality Chess, one of the authors refers how he offered a draw in a lost position to an amateur. He said "you know, you can have a draw whenever you want".

He was just finishing the sentence when the amateur shaked his hand.

he finishes: "Obviously he was not ready to beat a Grandmaster, Yes, I´m lost in that position, but who knows, maybe he would blunder later.".

pt22064
ponz111 wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

Yeah if a titled play offered me a draw I'd accept even if I (somehow) had a superior position.  Since I don't see that happening I never offer personally and would only agree if it's too obviously drawn or I'm in an inferior position and they somehow can't tell they're doing better. 

I think you are making a mistake. A titled player will offer you a draw if he/she thinks he is losing. 

In fact as a rule of thumb, if anyone offers you a draw, try to figure out why he thinks he is losing.

I would never offer a draw if I thought I was losing.  That's simply rude.  I would either resign if my position was hopeless, and there was little chance I could recover, or I would play on, hoping for a mistake from my opponent.  Notably, which choice I would make would depend on the skill level of my opponent.  If playing a GM, I would likely resign when down a minor piece if there was no compensation (e.g., counter-attack available).  On the other hand, if I were playing a beginner, I might play on even if I were down a queen.  I might also play on if I had a significant time advantage because my opponent could run out of time.

UnPolarizing

Yeah, it's all a matter of rating difference. I would never offer a draw to someone lower rated than me in equal positions, nor would I accept draw offers. Against higher rated players, I'm all for offering draws :)

But it's never rude to refuse a draw offer. Symmetrical pawns, knight endgame? Objectively, it is very drawn, but in practice, almost never drawn. Any player should be able to play out any position if he wants to.

The only disrespectful thing is not knowing when to resign. Against beginners, I don't really mind, but you have no idea how many times I've seen 2000s continue to play down a queen. THAT is a waste of time lol

bobbyDK

many players do not know what position are winning or drawing.

if you see this video you may think opposite bishops = draw and most players wouldn't know how to win the position in the video.

http://www.chess.com/video/player/winning-with-opposite-colored-bishops--part-3

the draw offer below 2000 is the worst invention preventing people from playing chess and try hard.

waffllemaster
ponz111 wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

Yeah if a titled play offered me a draw I'd accept even if I (somehow) had a superior position.  Since I don't see that happening I never offer personally and would only agree if it's too obviously drawn or I'm in an inferior position and they somehow can't tell they're doing better. 

I think you are making a mistake. A titled player will offer you a draw if he/she thinks he is losing. 

In fact as a rule of thumb, if anyone offers you a draw, try to figure out why he thinks he is losing.

I heard one master laughing about how easy it was to not lose against non masters... if he ever wound up in a losing position all he had to do was offer a draw and they accept like idiots (his words not mine).


As ponz says if a much stronger player is offering you a draw then their position is almost certainly lost.  If you have any time left on your clock at all don't answer them yet and look hard for the way to win.