Draw or Win?

I agree that the facts are important. If the players and arbiter agree that the move was made before the flag fell, the position has occurred.

No I did not miss that comment from the OP.

I am aware that the "move" took place on the board.

The OP's use of the word "completed" in this context is unhelpful.

FIDE rules refer to a move being "completed" only when the clock has been pressed, which the OP clearly notes that it was not.

Here's a big present for you, read at page 9,

http://arbiters.fide.com/images/stories/downloads/2015/FIDE_Arbiters_Magazine_No_1_-_July_2015.pdf

then turn back and I allowed you to says to you friend Monkey the same words he use to people he's not agree.

"Ironically, what the rules actually say is that if White didn't have a pawn on h6 then the game is drawn as soon as he plays his move and before he stops his clock, but if he has a pawn like he does here he needs to stop his clock to end his turn as per normal meaning that in this case he did indeed very much lose the game. It really couldn't be any clearer."

That is not quite what the rule is saying. As white has a pawn still but black only has a king, a position on the board has arrived in which black cannot checkmate white. What white's material count is is irrelevant. Let's say though for instance if black had a rook and white had a rook and then black initiated a rook exchange.

Would you dispute that this position is drawn?

You ask why I included rule 5.2b? Read the rule in question about completed moves again more carefully.

"His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game. (See the Articles 5.1.a, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c and 9.6)"

Hence, 5.2b which states:

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was legal. (See Article 9.6)"

Let me further clarify what I mean by "effectively".

"1.

Ciak--

Very interesting article. As white literally had a forced mate sequence and black's series of forced moves afterward to delay the mate so to speak could not produce checkmate, we have a very interesting case of an irregularity in which there is a draw but there is no insufficient material.

I haven't read past this. I don't need to. You haven't understood the rule correctly. The rule in question states that checkmate is not possible. Checkmate is possible. It doesn't matter for whom. When checkmate isn't posible the game ends. That never happened in the example we have here. Who can checkmate whom isn't relavent as long as somebody can checkmate somebody. You're the one who hasn't understood the rule, not myself.

"The OP's use of the word "completed" in this context is unhelpful.

FIDE rules refer to a move being "completed" only when the clock has been pressed, which the OP clearly notes that it was not."

Just clarifying. From a technical stand-point, though FIDE would probably not define it strictly speaking as "completed" what OP means in his context is that the move was made on the board. For more casual players unfamiliar with the grammatical nit-picking of FIDE, this would appear as "completed" though FIDE would not strictly define it as "completed".

See: "Every man's average vocabulary".

"The OP says that the board showed the move played but the clock was not pressed before the flag dropped. That means the move wasn't made."

As Lagomorph has pointed out, what CuddlyMonkey seems to be emphasizing is the "everyman's vocab" of the use of "completed". The FIDE term would be that the move was "made" but not "completed" and so the position was allowed to occur on the board one in which that a "made" move resulted in a position where black could not checkmate white. As per the rules, if a move is made and it results in a position which ends the game but the other guy's flag drops before he can "complete it" the position on the board takes precedent over the completed move.

In such case, the position was as follows:

That this position showed up on the board is quite indisputable and so by rule this is a draw.

I don't think I fully understand. Is your argument that your personal opinion of the spirit in which the rules were made should be what games are governed by instead of the actual rules themselves? Are you serious? Don't talk to me.

This is interesting.. From my read of the rules, the position resulting from the move is decided when the player releases his piece after moving it. This apparently happened before the flag fell. so in the final position of the game, black did not have sufficient mating material.

So once the flag fell, and the game was over because white was out of time, and black did not have sufficient material. it's a draw.

It's a matter of agreeing that the 'position' is decided after releasing the piece, rather than after pressing the clock.

I just read that article. It is wrong. That game is also a loss for White. The person who wrote that has made a mistake. They were trying to make a point about insufficient material and overlooked the clock rule relevant here in the process.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Finding this is only an argument in your favor in the sense that it defends your intelligence somewhat by showing that other people have also made your mistake.

What you have shown us here is not a rule that overrules the one which you are failing to understand here. It is nothing more than somebody making the same mistake that you have.

The rules couldn't be any clearer (they really couldn't!!) that the position has only occurred after the clock has been pressed. Except in the case of the game ending on the stroke of the move - soemthing that isn't at all relevant here.

I don't know what rules you have been reading but they aren't the ones posted here.

The idea here is that you should not have to checkmate your opponent and then hit the clock. That would be silly. Once your opponent is checkmated, he is checkmated. That is why the rules say that you have to press the clock to complete your move unless the move ends the game- it's almost insulting to play checkmate and then hit your clock.

In the same way, imagine stalemating your opponent and then hit your clock. Again, that would just be silly. The game is over, and the time is moot.

In the same way, the game ended as soon as Kxh7. It was like playing checkmate. Consider the rules of chess:

The game ends either when an opponent is checkmated, a draw is reached by various methods, or a player's time ran out.

Time running out is an independent game termination method, meaning that checkmate and stalemate/insufficient material/50 move rule etc.) are separate.

Consider that if two players take a draw by agreement, the player who's move it is doesn't have to hit his clock to complete the draw.

So the arbiter was definitely right to draw the game. The game was already terminated when the clock ran down, it was as relevent as the clock running down in the game on an adjacent table. The clock is just another method of determining when the game ends, but keep in mind that the game is still on the chess board. Since a game determination was already reached, nothing else was needed to determine the outcome of the game.

I thought this would just be an easier way to explain the rules and I also thought it would be helpful to explain the logic behind them.

Emotion and personal attacks are anathema for arbiters. The letter of the law is what matters. 

The arbiter made the right decision based on the letter of the law. I already posted the key provisions. The players and arbiter agreed about the fact the position arose. 

The facts of the case are not in dispute. 

I honestly haven't read past this and I probably never will. This is how stupid you're being: I hadn't even considered that you were arguing that this game should have been a draw until you said it.

THE GAME WAS NOT OVER WHEN KXH7 WAS PLAYED! THE FLAG FELL AFTER THIS! TIME WAS NOT UP WHEN THE MOVES WAS PLAYED. THE GAME WAS NOT OVER UNTIL THE FLAG FELL. IT WAS NOT OVER WHEN KXH7 WAS PLAYED!

Unbelieveable... I am litterally stuggling to believe this stupidity! People are simply proving themselves wrong in every post and not seeing it! What is going on?!?

I am actually getting very angry now so I probably won't post for a while after this.

You haven't done any of the things that you've just said. Everything you have said has been wrong, the rules you have posted have not been relevant and you haven't made any arguments at all. The facts are VERY SIMPLE and they are not in your favor.

The flag fell. The last position on the board contained both and White and a Black pawn. There is litterally no reason concievable to me as to why people would even think that this game was a draw. The move Kxh7 was never completed. The final position of the board contained many possible continuations in which Black could checkmate White.

I don't understand why this is even a debate.

Monkey - I was taking this (from smyslovfan):

"When, as a legal move or part of a legal move, a piece has been released on a square, it cannot be moved to another square on this move. The move is considered to have been made in the case of:

a capture, when the captured piece has been removed from the chessboard and the player, having placed his own piece on its new square, has released this capturing piece from his hand."

I think that's from the FIDE rule book but you can correct me if I'm wrong.. According to that, the position on the board is decided when the player released the capturing piece.

When the clock runs out, the either player with time remaining wins (if he has sufficient material on the board) or it's a draw (if he doesn't)

For the position to be what it was before the capture, white would have to take the move back - which is clearly not allowed from what I can see. How else could black have his pawn back?

Cuddly Monkey, i think you did not understand the article page 9. If you pay attention you will notice that 1. Nxc7 Rxc7 2. Nxc7 Rxc7 3. Kxc7 # is in fact the only legal continuation of the game. So - there is no way of black checkmating white with legal moves.

 

Besides that, any player who claims a win under the circumstances of the given case in this thread is definitely not acting in the spirit of the sport. Please quit playing chess if you are like that. Thank you.

After reading Cuddly monkeys further comments, i must say that he is definitely a troll. It is probably best to simply ignore his comments.