Dubious move in the QGA: how did you react to this move?

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Avatar of torrubirubi

This is certainly dubious, as any attempt to defend the pawn in the QGA. How did you react to the bishop's move? Can you post one of your games here?

Avatar of pdve

I would play Na3

Avatar of torrubirubi
DeirdreSkye wrote:

If you want to take the pawn , the simple 4.Na3 does the job.

But you can ignore the pawn and play for fast development when Black's bishop will prove awkwardly placed on e6.

    Here are some typical traps.

 

 

And here is a more higher level game.

 

Na3 is the move that I saw many years ago in a book, but I do not see this in the evaluation of strong modern engines. I think the book was published in the 1950s, so I am searching for something more actual.

Avatar of pdve

From a practical point of view, Na3 is good. You get back the pawn and develop your knight. You have the center so you can determine the course of play.

 

If you have the center you control everything. 

Avatar of torrubirubi

I like the way Gelfand played, getting the strong centre and exchanging the bishop. I wonder why black went for this line, he was completely crushed and did not had any counter-play (he tried something on the kingside, but it did not work at all, as we see). Thanks a lot Deirdre!

Avatar of SmithyQ

Can we take a moment to appreciate that the first game Skye posted was the under 12 Disney Girls event in Paris?  I'm now imagining Jasmine and Elsa squaring off in a chess match.

To answer the question, Na3 is the simplest approach, but almost any move is good for White.  If you decide to fully gambit the pawn, you will automatically have good compensation due to the lag of Black's kingside development.  

I’m just spitballing here, but even 4.e4!? looks interesting, where you transpose into the 3.e4 lines but where Black’s extra tempo is arguably worse than the normal variations.  The most popular response, 3…e5, is unavailable, and the d5 advance is always threatened.  Also, if you play e4 or not, Nf3 is a very logical move, threatening both Ng5, hitting the Bishop, as well as Ne5, which may increase the power of a Qa4+ if Black is careless while also hitting c4 again.

White has a near endless amount of interesting ideas, really, while Black’s best bet is likely returning the pawn to complete development.  These are positions you should love playing as White in the QGA, once you get a handle on it, I would say.

Avatar of pdve
DeirdreSkye wrote:
torrubirubi wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:

If you want to take the pawn , the simple 4.Na3 does the job.

But you can ignore the pawn and play for fast development when Black's bishop will prove awkwardly placed on e6.

    Here are some typical traps.

 

 

And here is a more higher level game.

 

Na3 is the move that I saw many years ago in a book, but I do not see this in the evaluation of strong modern engines. I think the book was published in the 1950s, so I am searching for something more actual.

         If engines don't have it , must be a bad move.My mistake.

Bad move for an engine doesn't mean bad move for a human.

Avatar of pdve
DeirdreSkye wrote:
pdve wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
torrubirubi wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:

If you want to take the pawn , the simple 4.Na3 does the job.

But you can ignore the pawn and play for fast development when Black's bishop will prove awkwardly placed on e6.

    Here are some typical traps.

 

 

And here is a more higher level game.

 

Na3 is the move that I saw many years ago in a book, but I do not see this in the evaluation of strong modern engines. I think the book was published in the 1950s, so I am searching for something more actual.

         If engines don't have it , must be a bad move.My mistake.

Bad move for an engine doesn't mean bad move for a human.

I know , but I am tired trying to explain this to those that seek  "perfection".

If it's a tactical mess, then yes, you have to seek perfection otherwise you simply lose. If it's the fourth move of the game, that's a different story

 

Avatar of sacrookmate

I would say Na3 or Nf3 are really strong for White in this position. ...Be6 isn't a good way to defend the pawn at all. 

Avatar of mcris

Black loses after not being able to castle in time.

Avatar of pdve

Well, let's get back to our book club. Are we going to be looking at strategy books too?

Avatar of torrubirubi
SmithyQ wrote:

Can we take a moment to appreciate that the first game Skye posted was the under 12 Disney Girls event in Paris?  I'm now imagining Jasmine and Elsa squaring off in a chess match.

To answer the question, Na3 is the simplest approach, but almost any move is good for White.  If you decide to fully gambit the pawn, you will automatically have good compensation due to the lag of Black's kingside development.  

I’m just spitballing here, but even 4.e4!? looks interesting, where you transpose into the 3.e4 lines but where Black’s extra tempo is arguably worse than the normal variations.  The most popular response, 3…e5, is unavailable, and the d5 advance is always threatened.  Also, if you play e4 or not, Nf3 is a very logical move, threatening both Ng5, hitting the Bishop, as well as Ne5, which may increase the power of a Qa4+ if Black is careless while also hitting c4 again.

White has a near endless amount of interesting ideas, really, while Black’s best bet is likely returning the pawn to complete development.  These are positions you should love playing as White in the QGA, once you get a handle on it, I would say.

Thanks Smithy. You know, in my level of play I am always concerned about getting material back. But after you post, I am sure I should just be confident in getting a nice position, doesn't matter if I would get the pawn back or not. Actually I am used to the concept of giving material in openings if I have compensation for it, but for some reason I always though on the QGA as not giving material at all (or having a lot of material after things like 3...b5 etc.

Avatar of torrubirubi
pdve wrote:

Well, let's get back to our book club. Are we going to be looking at strategy books too?

Sorry pdve! As I said, I was away and in my hotel I was not able to access my club page through my iPad, I don't know why. I will see you there!

Avatar of JamesColeman

I've played 3...Be6 a few times in OTB rapid games. I wouldn't say I entirely trust it but it doesn't lose outright. That said, most sensible moves should give White some edge.

Avatar of pfren

3...Be6 is not a bad move.

Several years ago GM Nikolaidis suggested that white has the advantage after the weird looking 4.Ne2!? (intending either Nf4 or Nec3, according to Black's reply), but I think Black has an equalizing line at his disposal.

4.Nf3 Nf6 are normal, and now either 5.Nbd2 or 5.Nc3 h6 (5...c6 6.Ng5) 6.Ne5 should give white a slight advantage- but Black's position is entirely playable.

 

Avatar of torrubirubi
pfren wrote:

3...Be6 is not a bad move.

Several years ago GM Nikolaidis suggested that white has the advantage after the weird looking 4.Ne2!? (intending either Nf4 or Nec3, according to Black's reply), but I think Black has an equalizing line at his disposal.

4.Nf3 Nf6 are normal, and now either 5.Nbd2 or 5.Nc3 h6 (5...c6 6.Ng5) 6.Ne5 should give white a slight advantage- but Black's position is entirely playable.

 

Okay. Well, sometimes some playable moves are not mentioned in repertoire books. This is already a reason for a player go for this move, having the chance to be better prepared for this line than the opponent. The bishop looks weird there, but there are some openings (I remember for example against the Tarrasch, or in the Grünfeld) where similar "pawn-blocking-bishop moves" are played, 

Avatar of mcris

Engine game from TCEC 7:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 Be6 4.Nf3 c6 5.Nbd2 b5 6.a4 Nf6 7.axb5 cxb5 8.b3 c3 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nbxd7 11.Nb1 Rc8 12.Qc2 Nd5 13.Ba3 e5 14.Bxf8 Kxf8 15.O-O Nb4 16.Qe4 c2 17.Na3 Nf6 18.Qb7 Nfd5 19.Nxe5 Qc7 20.Qb5 a6 21.Qa4 a5 22.Nb5 c1=Q 23.Raxc1 Qxc1 24.h3 Qc2 25.Nd6 Rb8 26.e4 Nb6 27.Qb5 Qc7 28.Ndxf7 Rg8 29.Qxa5 N6d5 30.Qa1 Nf4 31.d5 Nbd3 32.Qa3+ Qe7 33.d6 Qf6 34.d7+ Qe7 35.Qa5 Nxe5 36.Nxe5 Qd6 37.Kh2 Ng6 38.f4 Ke7 39.Nc4 Qd4 40.f5 Nf8 41.Rf2 Qxf2 42.Qe5+ Kxd7 43.Qxb8 Ke7 44.Qe5+ Kd8 45.Qd5+ Ke7 46.Qxg8 Qf4+ 47.Kg1 Qc1+ 48.Kf2 Qf4+ 49.Ke2 Qxe4+ 50.Ne3 Qe5 51.Kf3 h6 52.b4 Ke8 53.Qd5 Qf6 54.Qe4+ Kf7 55.b5 Nd7 56.Qc4+ Ke8 57.Qc8+ Qd8 58.Qxd8+ Kxd8 59.Ke4 Nf8 60.Kd5 Kc8 1-0

Avatar of SmyslovFan
pfren wrote:

3...Be6 is not a bad move.

Several years ago GM Nikolaidis suggested that white has the advantage after the weird looking 4.Ne2!? (intending either Nf4 or Nec3, according to Black's reply), but I think Black has an equalizing line at his disposal.

4.Nf3 Nf6 are normal, and now either 5.Nbd2 or 5.Nc3 h6 (5...c6 6.Ng5) 6.Ne5 should give white a slight advantage- but Black's position is entirely playable.

 

There was a time when 3...Be6 was considered a very bad move, but engines have shown that the Black can do quite well with this. 

I still agree with Glenn Flear's assessment that the position is difficult for Black if you're not using an engine. 

Avatar of torrubirubi

I should change the thread's title to "Dubious-looking but perhaps playable move in the QGA"

Avatar of SmithyQ

I feel there should be a distinction between ‘playable’ and ‘good’.  It may turn out that playing 1.f3 and 2.Kf2 is playable, in the sense that it doesn’t lose by force.  Even so, it is clearly not good, and telling a beginner that this opening is playable is borderline ingenious. 

In the Be6 lines, Black’s position becomes harder, and I mean that in the strictest sense: his range of possible follow-ups decreases enormously.  If Black strays even a little, his position can become much worse.  Said another way, it’s much easier for Black to fall into a worse position or blunder than for White.  Considering blunders decide the vast majority of amateur games, I think Be6 should rightly be called dubious, practically speaking.

If we want to say that Be6 is not a losing move, that’s one thing, and I completely agree.  Black isn’t lost, but it’s also not the best he could have done.  Now, it’s fully possible such an opening may be like the Berlin, where Black gets an ugly position but White struggles to actually do something concrete.  Here, in a QGA with all pieces and 94% of the pawns, I doubt that’s the case.