etiquette question: draw/time situations

Hi all,

 This question came about because I play Live Chess online, but I suppose it also applies to real-life situations. 

 If two players are playing, say, a timed game at 20 minutes apiece, and they reach a draw situation (say, each player is left with a king and a rook only), but one player has 7 minutes left on their clock and the other has 4....is it "sporting" or "proper" for the person with 7 minutes on the clock to prolong the game by simply making moves as quickly as possible, in an attempt to force a win by making the opponent run out of time?  Obviously it would take a while, assuming people use only about a second or two per move; but assuming each player is equally fast in doing that, then the player with 3 minutes left would eventually lose.

Or is it considered a "professional courtesy" to simply offer a draw at that point, no matter what the time is for either player? 

I'm not sure of the etiquette as to how to handle that sort of situation.  Anyone want to chime in with an opinion?

 Thanks,

Dave 

It doesn't apply in real-life situations, because in these situations there is a judge to whom you can ask a draw, if you explain him how you would proceed.

It is not true that an arbiter can declare a game drawn. If a player makes a claim of "no losing chances" the arbiter can uphold that claim by placing a time delay clock on the game, not by awarding a draw. If the game already has a time delay clock, there is no such thing as a claim of "no losing chances".

 

I once played in an OTB blitz tournament where my opponent had a pretty clear mating attack but only a few seconds left. I offered a draw, but he declined. I then sacrificed my bishop and queen just to get checks and delay his attack long enough for his time to run out and flag him. That's life in blitz chess.

Thanks very much, folks, for the replies and opinions.  I guess what I was really after (and didn't make very clear) is how folks here would handle something like that if playing Live Chess online here.

 Regarding the 50-move draw rule, for the sake of argument let's say the "losing on time" player has only 1:30 left, and the other player has 5 minutes...or whatever time we want to assign so that even with quick moves, the shorted player will run out of time before the 50-moves are reached.

And let's further assume that there's no really profitable moves except to move pieces around (without repeating position obviously, which would itself be a draw). 

The question then remains: is it common online to offer a draw, or is it more common to try to run the other player out of time even in a draw situation?

 Thanks :) the discussion is fascinating! 

Amnesiac, It used to be that an arbiter can award a draw. But this has been replaced by the time delay clock. If you have a time delay clock, then the opponent who does nothing trying to win on time will wind up drawing anyway. If an arbiter is declaring games drawn, they are relying on an old rule because they don't have a time delay clock available.

canadave> The question then remains: is it common online to offer a draw, or is it more common to try to run the other player out of time even in a draw situation?

I would try to run my opponent out of time and win, and in my experience, most opponents would do the same. But this is all hypothetical. In OTB chess I play with a delay clock, and in online chess I usually play with an increment, so games are never won by the fastest wood-pusher in a drawn position.

In the 8th round of the World Open I was in a drawn Bs ending and my opponent had 8 minutes on his clock compared to my 30 sec. With a delay, it is really hard to blow a simple draw. I did need to call the TD to help count moves.

how do you call the TD in a time scramble?  Over here, in the leagues anyway, dunno about tournaments, you can claim a draw from a clearly winning position (piece up without compensation, or certain endgames), or if it's a book draw, or if your opponent is making no attempt to win without reference to the state of the clocks.  You have to have made a certain number of moves before you can do this though, so you cant just play slowly and wait for the last 2 minutes of your time.  I think the first 2 can be settled there and then, or if they cant you have to send stuff off for arbitration, and for the 3rd, you have to send a copy of the scoresheets i think.  I guess this is because there arent arbiters present, and because time delay clocks would be expensive, and awkward to use. 

sstteevveenn> how do you call the TD in a time scramble?

You stop both clocks and either wave to him or walk over to him.

oh yeah, makes sense now you say it .  I've never played with a TD, and am not sure of what sort of things i can stop the clocks for in the games i play.  It's the sort of rule that gets changed frequently.  I think it used to be "a query requiring the presence of both match captains" or something, but it's a bit vague and doesnt say what sort of query is acceptable. 

 

Do digital clocks have a pause button for this purpose?  I've only used one once.  I think they do, because I think I remember reading about it in that armageddon game bust up where the winner said it was too small to press quickly enough when her opponent sent a rook flying. 

sstteevveenn> Do digital clocks have a pause button for this purpose?

Yes, on every digital time delay clock I encountered in the tournament there was a pause button. It's usually a smaller button in the front / middle of the clock, so it's true it may take an extra couple seconds to press.

I'm glad this topic came up because I can't stand when people do this.  If I reach a clearly drawn position and my opponent is verly low on time I'll immeadeatly offer a draw, (with the exception of a philidor position where my opponent would have to prove he knows what he's doing). How bad is the need to win games that your ok with simply moving your rook back and forth while your opponents time ticks down?

On the Chronos clock you pause the time using a big red button in the center on the top of the clock. I guess one more reason to prefer Chronos. ;-)

Chess_Lobster wrote:

I'm glad this topic came up because I can't stand when people do this.  If I reach a clearly drawn position and my opponent is verly low on time I'll immeadeatly offer a draw, (with the exception of a philidor position where my opponent would have to prove he knows what he's doing). How bad is the need to win games that your ok with simply moving your rook back and forth while your opponents time ticks down?

I see what you're saying.  I guess I always figured it like this: we're both trying to win the game; I made sure to husband my time appropriately throughout the game (taking more of a risk, since I made quicker moves); so, if at the end it's a draw situation but he's only got 30 seconds left and I have 5 minutes (through my own forethought and skill), then I'd feel like I was cheating myself if I offered a draw.  Conversely, if the situation were reversed and I was the one who was down to 30 seconds, I'd totally understand if my opponent, ahead on time, tried to run out my clock...for the same reasons.

 

However, your point is well-taken, and I'm all for sporting play, which is why I raised the question :) 

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Games with no increment and no delay are often decided by wood-pushing. If you don't want your games to be decided by wood-pushing, play with a small increment or delay. It's simple and everyone gets the sort of game they want to play.

Loomis, yes, I'm jealous of your Chronos clock. ;)

This has happened to me twice this last week in 15-0 games.  We were down to one rook a piece.  Obviously a draw unless one play makes an absurd blunder, and I had 5-6 minutes left in both games to my opponents 3-4.  My opponent playd out all 50 moves before I could claim the draw.  I just want to know why?  To me it is utterly rude to do this.  (In both games I was the higher rated player, I don't know if that effects things).