Fat Fritz, the Chessbase's Alphazero

barretoff

Chessbase has just published an article about its newest and most revolutionary product, Fat Fritz. The potential of this program in the lives of chess players is incredible.

Link to article: https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz-what-on-earth-is-that

IMBacon

There is no "potential" there for the average everyday player.  The players it will impact are the top level elite players.  As Anand said.  He will have to rethink his openings. You...me...all the other average players?  No.

EscherehcsE

I would have been shocked if Chessbase hadn't done this. Of course, it's a win-win for the company. Chessbase gets to sell more copies of the Chessbase GUI and rent cloud time for the engine.

IMBacon
EscherehcsE wrote:

I would have been shocked if Chessbase hadn't done this. Of course, it's a win-win for the company. Chessbase gets to sell more copies of the Chessbase GUI and rent cloud time for the engine.

BINGO...Money. 

barretoff

Will we ever see Leela vs FatFritz here at chess.com/ccc?

Is it my impression or is chess.com's hardware superior to Chessbase's?

EscherehcsE
barretoff wrote:

Will we ever see Leela vs FatFritz here at chess.com/ccc?

Is it my impression or is chess.com's hardware superior to Chessbase's?

You'll probably see such a match if Fat Fritz becomes stronger than Leela. Of course, technical details would have to be worked out, like can FF run in whatever GUI is used for the match, and someone would have to pay for the cloud rental (or Chessbase would have to waive the rental fee). These are the problems with proprietary engines and cloud rental.

IMBacon

Bumping....

PTBA

Ekrabin

I imagine people that play correspondence chess will be willing to pay Chessbase cloud rental fees  if there is an advantage to be had from Fat Fritz.

EscherehcsE

A discussion has started on Talkchess. The question is whether Chessbase has written a completely new engine or is just using Leela with a custom neural net. As is typical of Chessbase, details are murky. And, since Fat Fritz is cloud only, the engine can't be inspected to answer the question.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71540

 

barretoff
EscherehcsE escreveu:

A discussion has started on Talkchess. The question is whether Chessbase has written a completely new engine or is just using Leela with a custom neural net. As is typical of Chessbase, details are murky. And, since Fat Fritz is cloud only, the engine can't be inspected to answer the question.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71540

 

I read the discussion on Talkchess. I remember well when Albert Silver launched DeusX (GodX, translator portuguese to english) he said it was a variant of Leela. That is, if DeusX originates from Lc0, Fat Fritz is also Leela, don't you think? It is a logical deduction.

EscherehcsE
barretoff wrote:
EscherehcsE escreveu:

A discussion has started on Talkchess. The question is whether Chessbase has written a completely new engine or is just using Leela with a custom neural net. As is typical of Chessbase, details are murky. And, since Fat Fritz is cloud only, the engine can't be inspected to answer the question.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71540

 

I read the discussion on Talkchess. I remember well when Albert Silver launched DeusX (GodX, translator portuguese to english) he said it was a variant of Leela. That is, if DeusX originates from Lc0, Fat Fritz is also Leela, don't you think? It is a logical deduction.

That's the whole point of the Talkchess discussion. IF FF is actually Leela, then you'd think Chessbase would be transparent enough to credit the hard work of the Leela team. Instead, reading the Chessbase article, one can easily be lead to think that Chessbase created a whole new engine. Maybe they did, or maybe they didn't. We just don't know at this point.

drmrboss

You dont need to think. You can participate in technical discussion with Albert Silver in Leela discord. ( There is no point discussion in chess.com forum where no one talk about technical details , instead in talkchess, leela discord, fishcooking, Leela google group etc). Some of screenshot if you are interested.








Ekrabin

I remember the Days in the 80's when chess players made fun of dedicated chess playing engines happy.png 

EscherehcsE

@drmrboss - Thanks for the post. So Silver has confirmed that FF is Leela with custom NN. I just wish the Chessbase article had been as clear.

Ekrabin

I agree I think Chessbase should have provided this information in their article.

drmrboss
Ekrabin wrote:

I agree I think Chessbase should have provided this information in their article.

Well, business service wont tell those information about their products. grin.png

e.g Fritz 16 is extremely weak vs Stockfish( about -300 elo behind) , but they won't provide CCRL rating!

IMBacon
drmrboss wrote:
Ekrabin wrote:

I agree I think Chessbase should have provided this information in their article.

Well, business service wont tell those information about their products.

e.g Fritz 16 is extremely weak vs Stockfish( about -300 elo behind) , but they won't provide CCRL rating!

I think using the term "weak" here is relative.  I have no idea what the ratings are of either so i am merely guessing here.  Lets say Fritz 16 is rated 3000, and Stockfish is rated 3300.  At that rating, does it even matter/make a difference for users like us?  For the world elite sure i get it, but for us?  I just dont see how it matters.

barretoff
drmrboss escreveu:
Ekrabin wrote:

I agree I think Chessbase should have provided this information in their article.

Well, business service wont tell those information about their products.

e.g Fritz 16 is extremely weak vs Stockfish( about -300 elo behind) , but they won't provide CCRL rating!

Looking at the chess.com/ccc and Chessbase hardware, which do you think is the best, most robust?

drmrboss
barretoff wrote:
drmrboss escreveu:
Ekrabin wrote:

I agree I think Chessbase should have provided this information in their article.

Well, business service wont tell those information about their products.

e.g Fritz 16 is extremely weak vs Stockfish( about -300 elo behind) , but they won't provide CCRL rating!

Looking at the chess.com/ccc and Chessbase hardware, which do you think is the best, most robust?

Technically, we dont know the strength of cloud computing power they are running on fat fritz( dexus) but Leela will be running on consumer graphic cards on pc that everyone has. If they are on equal strength vs Leela, Leela would be better. In 2018, their earlier verison of fat fritz (Dexus) vs Leela, Leela was better as well. 

 

However, if software is too good, hardware is less important.

For example, 64 cores Komodo win 2400 cores Jonny program.

 

In my opinion, if leela is running on 2x 2080Ti GPU, then she can beat Fat Fritz on their cloud service.

mooskagh
drmrboss wrote:

In my opinion, if leela is running on 2x 2080Ti GPU, then she can beat Fat Fritz on their cloud service.

 

From screenshots it seems they have 2x GTX 2080 (not even GTX 2080ti).

I'm sure on equal hardware Leela would win. But they don't seem to object it, they advertise "Fat Fritz" as some source of opening insights, not as the strongest engine.