Why can’t premoves be 0.001 sec?

Sort:
Typewriter44

yeah, in reality there is no way in (online chess) if premoves were disabled there is no chance anyone would be able to make a move anywhere near 0.001 seconds (1000 moves/second)

Arisktotle
btickler wrote:

"Premoves" are supposed to represent the same bullet/blitz phenom as holding your hand over the next piece waiting for your opponent to hit the clock.......  

Hmm, that is the strangest explanation I ever heard of premoves. What you describe is no premove at all since you hold your hand after your opponent executed his move, you saw what happened and made your decision. If you did it any earlier you are liable to be disqualified for hindering your opponent.

My view is that the premove is a typical online phenomenon based on the prediction skills of players which are of great use in OTB games as well. Many cultures change in online environments and assume an online character of their own. The way to go wrong is not to see the differences and hold on to old images of realities no longer present. Had chessplayers followed your logic, we would still be playing without chess clocks at all. After all, isn't the chess clock a strange technical aberration amongst gentlemen with ample time on their hands seeking a competitive brain challenge? Not even discussing the horrific chess murdering variants of bullet and blitz. Or should I say chess clock murdering variants?

DiogenesDue
Arisktotle wrote:
 

Hmm, that is the strangest explanation I ever heard of premoves. What you describe is no premove at all since you hold your hand after your opponent executed his move, you saw what happened and made your decision. If you did it any earlier you are liable to be disqualified for hindering your opponent.

My view is that the premove is a typical online phenomenon based on the prediction skills of players which they also use in OTB games. Many cultures change in online environments and assume a character of their own. The way to go wrong is not to see the differences and hold on to old images of realities no longer in existence. Had chessplayers followed your logic, we would still be playing without chess clocks at all. After all, isn't the chess clock a strange aberration amongst gentlemen with ample time on their hands seeking a competitive brain challenge? Not even discussing the horrific chess murdering variants of bullet and blitz. Or should I say chess clock murdering variants?

Not remotely true.  It's not after.  For example, if you are playing KID as black you will be holding your hand over the g7 area of the board regardless of your opponent's choices.  If you are moving a knight to a new outpost, you will hold your hand over the knight.  If you are promoting a pawn, you will not have you hand anywhere else but over that pawn.  The difference is that in the "real" Blitz, you have to wait until the opponent hits their clock before you can make your move.  The variant you are promoting is what would OTB be just a sloppy blitz game where both players are just moving at the same time, and then stopping to argue about who cheated wink.png.

If you are calling this a change in chess culture, then you agree that Blitz is not the correct nomenclature for a variant with 0.1 or 0.001 premoves.  It's not in any way a "reality no longer in existence"...it's a FIDE ranked variant that has its own events and is also used for tie-breakers in slower time controls.  Call the online premove version something else, and then see if it still works its way into mainstream chess culture.

What would be your explanation for why Chess.com implemented a minimum of 0.1 seconds? 

Elroch
Typewriter44 wrote:

yeah, in reality there is no way in (online chess) if premoves were disabled there is no chance anyone would be able to make a move anywhere near 0.001 seconds (1000 moves/second)

True. Human reaction times are always greater than 0.1 seconds.

Note that for almost all time controls, the 0.1 second "cost" of premoves is not very important. There are typically no more than say 20 premoves in a game, which costs a grand total of 2 seconds. Just pretend your allocated time is 2 seconds less than it actually is and you have allowed plenty for premoves.

AyushBlundersAgain
Elroch wrote:
Typewriter44 wrote:

yeah, in reality there is no way in (online chess) if premoves were disabled there is no chance anyone would be able to make a move anywhere near 0.001 seconds (1000 moves/second)

True. Human reaction times are always greater than 0.1 seconds.

Who cares about reaction times? It's a PRE-MOVE; it doesn't account for reaction times.

Elroch

Perhaps you failed to read the part that said "IF PREMOVES WERE DISABLED..."

MainframeSupertasker

Yeah, its very impossible.

Arisktotle
btickler wrote:

Not remotely true.  It's not after.  For example, if you are playing KID as black you will be holding your hand over the g7 area of the board regardless of your opponent's choices  If you are moving a knight to a new outpost, you will hold your hand over the knight.  If you are promoting a pawn, you will not have you hand anywhere else but over that pawn.

If you are calling this a change in chess culture, then you agree that Blitz is not the correct nomenclature for a variant with 0.1 or 0.001 premoves.  It's not in any way a "reality no longer in existence"...it's a FIDE ranked variant that has its own events and is also used for tie-breakers in slower time controls.  Call the online premove version something else, and then see if it still works its way into mainstream chess culture.

What would be your explanation for why Chess.com implemented a minimum of 0.1 seconds? 

Well, KID is not OTB (I assume) which already illustrates the difference in online and OTB culture, irrespective of how these variants are called.

You never get the online and OTB chess variants matching and I suppose it is pretty impractical to assign different names to closely related variants. Even the fact that I can drink my yoghurt during an internet game has an essential impact on the outcome (according to Karpov/Korchnoi).

I do not disagree with adding time in bullet/blitz- or any other type of game, simply for the reason that time increments per move are an excellent tool for managing long chess games. I can't see any relationship with premoves and reaction times. Not sure why chess.com gives the increments it does. I'll be happy to see and evaluate their explanations when and where they come.

Edit: Sorry, reversed the argument. They take away 0.1 on premoves which of course I do not agree with! Note I didn't state I agree with the premove option as such. Since playing online moves is faster than playing OTB moves in all instances, I only see that permitting premoves takes the game further away from the OTB version. Premove thinking/guessing is very different from standard thinking. The time deduction is just a detail in that story.

hikarunaku

Lichess has 0 second premoves but you cannot chain the premoves like here. 

Arisktotle
Arisktotle wrote:
btickler wrote:

Not remotely true.  It's not after.  For example, if you are playing KID as black you will be holding your hand over the g7 area of the board regardless of your opponent's choices  If you are moving a knight to a new outpost, you will hold your hand over the knight.  If you are promoting a pawn, you will not have you hand anywhere else but over that pawn.

If you are calling this a change in chess culture, then you agree that Blitz is not the correct nomenclature for a variant with 0.1 or 0.001 premoves.  It's not in any way a "reality no longer in existence"...it's a FIDE ranked variant that has its own events and is also used for tie-breakers in slower time controls.  Call the online premove version something else, and then see if it still works its way into mainstream chess culture.

What would be your explanation for why Chess.com implemented a minimum of 0.1 seconds? 

Well, KID is not OTB (I assume) which already illustrates the difference in online and OTB culture, irrespective of how these variants are called.

You never get the online and OTB chess variants matching and I suppose it is pretty impractical to assign different names to closely related variants. Even the fact that I can drink my yoghurt during an internet game has an essential impact on the outcome (according to Karpov/Korchnoi).

I do not disagree with adding time in bullet/blitz- or any other type of game, simply for the reason that time increments per move are an excellent tool for managing long chess games. I can't see any relationship with premoves and reaction times. Not sure why chess.com gives the increments it does. I'll be happy to see and evaluate their explanations when and where they come.

Edit: Sorry, reversed the argument. They take away 0.1 on premoves which of course I do not agree with! Note I didn't state I agree with the premove option as such. Since playing online moves is already faster than playing OTB moves in all instances, I only see that permitting premoves takes the game further away from the OTB version. Premove thinking/guessing is very different from standard thinking. The time deduction is just a detail in that story.

 

llamonade
btickler wrote:
llamonade wrote:
btickler wrote:

Premoves should be .3 seconds, actually.  That would be more in time with human reaction time.

Why charge me for "reaction time" when I know what moves I want to play before I even see my opponent's move? How is that a reaction?

"Premoves" are supposed to represent the same bullet/blitz phenom as holding your hand over the next piece waiting for your opponent to hit the clock. 

I think that's incorrect.

Case in point @btickler says:

btickler wrote:

OTB, there's no way in hell that a person could make *10* moves and hit the clock in the last 1 second. 

So you have to consider that for bullet and low time control blitz, the online method is superior to OTB. In fact AFAIK bullet didn't exist in pre internet days, and now pros actually play bullet chess championships and win money... of course they play these online, never OTB.

Online isn't a cheap imitation, it's superior (at those time controls)

 

btickler wrote:

Now, I know that a great many players here on chess.com don't even have any real OTB blitz experience, but let me assure you that it's not possible to make moves in .1 seconds.  

You can if you start moving at nearly the same time as your opponent starts moving, so you both go to hit the clock at nearly the same time. I've seen Naka play ~10 moves in 1 second OTB on youtube. Also the 2008 Krush vs Zatonskih playoff comes to mind.

Sure 10 moves in 1 second might be impossible (at least on a good clock with both players moving fast) but I'm sure 1 move in .1 second has happened lots of times OTB.

 

btickler wrote:

Maybe call it "Ruin Chess", since it hampers your OTB play in both fast and slow time controls ...

I haven't even looked at your ratings, but it's always slow players who talk like this.

Go ahead and look at chess.com's bullet and blitz leaderborad. Maybe as a PSA you could post on these top GM's notes that their chess is ruined. What a joke.

DiogenesDue
 llamonade wrote:
btickler wrote:
llamonade wrote:
btickler wrote:

Premoves should be .3 seconds, actually.  That would be more in time with human reaction time.

Why charge me for "reaction time" when I know what moves I want to play before I even see my opponent's move? How is that a reaction?

"Premoves" are supposed to represent the same bullet/blitz phenom as holding your hand over the next piece waiting for your opponent to hit the clock. 

I think that's incorrect.

Case in point @btickler says:

btickler wrote:

OTB, there's no way in hell that a person could make *10* moves and hit the clock in the last 1 second. 

So you have to consider that for bullet and low time control blitz, the online method is superior to OTB. In fact AFAIK bullet didn't exist in pre internet days, and now pros actually play bullet chess championships and win money... of course they play these online, never OTB.

Online isn't a cheap imitation, it's superior (at those time controls)

 

btickler wrote:

Now, I know that a great many players here on chess.com don't even have any real OTB blitz experience, but let me assure you that it's not possible to make moves in .1 seconds.  

You can if you start moving at nearly the same time as your opponent starts moving, so you both go to hit the clock at nearly the same time. I've seen Naka play ~10 moves in 1 second OTB on youtube. Also the 2008 Krush vs Zatonskih playoff comes to mind.

Sure 10 moves in 1 second might be impossible (at least on a good clock with both players moving fast) but I'm sure 1 move in .1 second has happened lots of times OTB.

 

btickler wrote:

Maybe call it "Ruin Chess", since it hampers your OTB play in both fast and slow time controls ...

I haven't even looked at your ratings, but it's always slow players who talk like this.

Go ahead and look at chess.com's bullet and blitz leaderborad. Maybe as a PSA you could post on these top GM's notes that their chess is ruined. What a joke.

Why would looking at chess.com's online bullet and blitz leaderboards invalidate what I said?  Some people think playing fast time controls doesn't hurt.  I would say that Nakamura and MVL have both dulled their WCC chances by focusing on it.  Caruana is not nearly as fast and does not focus on it...and he's better OTB, and he can play a WCC match and not get routed.

I admire Nakamura, but I doubt even he would tell you that playing fast online time controls has no effect whatsoever on his OTB play in classic time controls...you know...real chess?

"I've seen Naka play ~10 moves in 1 second OTB on youtube."

That might be your perception.  If you would like to actually time this (from a non-speeded up video wink.png) and post a link...

Typewriter44

I mean, A lot of the time in bullet I hold the piece over the square instead of premoving because I might not be 100% sure that is the move I want to make, depending on my opponent's response. this usually takes 0.1-0.3 seconds

llamonade
btickler wrote:

Why would looking at chess.com's online bullet and blitz leaderboards invalidate what I said? 

It's true that it doesn't refute it directly or completely, and it's true that playing a lot of blitz or bullet will hurt OTB chess... just like playing a lot of basketball will hurt your OTB chess tongue.png

The iron rule for anything is to practice the skill you want to improve. My point was lots of very strong players play a lot of blitz and bullet. Some top GMs also have top speed scores. If you play both you'll be good at both.

 

btickler wrote:

I would say that Nakamura and MVL have both dulled their WCC chances by focusing on it. 

The arrogance of people who say this is astounding to me. How much time does MVL or Naka spend on serious chess study vs speed play? What kinds of activities do they do when they study seriously? You (and I) have no idea.

 

btickler wrote:

Caruana is not nearly as fast and does not focus on it...and he's better OTB

And yet Carlsen is the best speed player on the planet and also world champion in classical chess.

And in any case, just like my leaderboard argument wasn't water tight, neither is your "you can be world top 10, but not #1 if you play blitz a lot" argument.

 

btickler wrote:

I admire Nakamura, but I doubt even he would tell you that playing fast online time controls has no effect whatsoever on his OTB play

Sure, up until about this year when he fell to #15 or so, he's been languishing at the level of a perennial top 10er. Such a tragedy.

 

btickler wrote:

I admire Nakamura, but I doubt even he would tell you that playing fast online time controls has no effect whatsoever on his OTB play in classic time controls...you know...real chess?

Yeah, I do, because I play OTB too.

I'm not sure you play blitz though.

josephyossi
AyushMChessMator wrote:
IMRonilm1204 wrote:

Premoves on this site are terrible. 

Change it to 1/100 of a second. What’s the point of premoves if I can make a move in 1/10 of a second without premoving? 

I agree, I feel the pain.

what happened to 

@lord_hammer 's post?

Elroch
btickler wrote:
 llamonade wrote:
btickler wrote:
llamonade wrote:
btickler wrote:

Premoves should be .3 seconds, actually.  That would be more in time with human reaction time.

Why charge me for "reaction time" when I know what moves I want to play before I even see my opponent's move? How is that a reaction?

"Premoves" are supposed to represent the same bullet/blitz phenom as holding your hand over the next piece waiting for your opponent to hit the clock. 

I think that's incorrect.

Case in point @btickler says:

btickler wrote:

OTB, there's no way in hell that a person could make *10* moves and hit the clock in the last 1 second. 

So you have to consider that for bullet and low time control blitz, the online method is superior to OTB. In fact AFAIK bullet didn't exist in pre internet days, and now pros actually play bullet chess championships and win money... of course they play these online, never OTB.

Online isn't a cheap imitation, it's superior (at those time controls)

 

btickler wrote:

Now, I know that a great many players here on chess.com don't even have any real OTB blitz experience, but let me assure you that it's not possible to make moves in .1 seconds.  

You can if you start moving at nearly the same time as your opponent starts moving, so you both go to hit the clock at nearly the same time. I've seen Naka play ~10 moves in 1 second OTB on youtube. Also the 2008 Krush vs Zatonskih playoff comes to mind.

Sure 10 moves in 1 second might be impossible (at least on a good clock with both players moving fast) but I'm sure 1 move in .1 second has happened lots of times OTB.

 

btickler wrote:

Maybe call it "Ruin Chess", since it hampers your OTB play in both fast and slow time controls ...

I haven't even looked at your ratings, but it's always slow players who talk like this.

Go ahead and look at chess.com's bullet and blitz leaderborad. Maybe as a PSA you could post on these top GM's notes that their chess is ruined. What a joke.

Why would looking at chess.com's online bullet and blitz leaderboards invalidate what I said?  Some people think playing fast time controls doesn't hurt.  I would say that Nakamura and MVL have both dulled their WCC chances by focusing on it.  Caruana is not nearly as fast and does not focus on it...and he's better OTB, and he can play a WCC match and not get routed.

I admire Nakamura, but I doubt even he would tell you that playing fast online time controls has no effect whatsoever on his OTB play in classic time controls...you know...real chess?

"I've seen Naka play ~10 moves in 1 second OTB on youtube."

That might be your perception.  If you would like to actually time this (from a non-speeded up video ) and post a link...

In OTB the speed of hand to clock matters. If your opponent plays a move and moves their hand in a less than brisk manner to the clock, you can play your move and press your clock button before they have had a chance to. Sometimes this leads to a bit of awkwardness as they try to push the button down illegitimately and you hold your button down hard to stop them.

Ah, the good old days!

rkdkchess

premoves should be 1 microsecond 

Elroch

Heck, give people a bonus second for moving with their eyes closed.