How bad were the old "GM's" really

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JamieDelarosa
Harley-Rebel wrote:

1932 is in the first third of the 20 th century, lol.

Howard Staunton was considered by some to be below 2000 ELO standard, in spite of chessmetrics assessment. Must check a few of his games. Here's one! played a few short years before he was regarded as the best. He doesnt really get into the game and his play looks sub-1800 in this one match.

Let me point out that the OP specified the time period "1700's to 1900's"

The 1930s are in the 1900s.

SmyslovFan

Btw, there's no way of knowing how strong players before ~1850 really were because with only a few exceptions because there are so few extant games, and many of those were "best" games. An exception is the LaBourdonnais-McDonnell matches. 

I have not done any rigorous studies of the games of the great players before Morphy but I have analysed many games from that period. I strongly suspect that Philidor was almost as strong as Morphy, but there's not really a good way of finding out because there are so few games, and we don't know the conditions those games were played in. La Bourdonnais and McDonnell were almost certainly better than Staunton, but I don't know how much better. 

I think an educated guess regarding the strength of Philidor, La Bourdonnais and McDonnell is 2200 for Philidor, 2100 for La Bourdonnais, and ~2000 for McDonnell. 

Harley-Rebel

Jamie, let me respond by saying that "to" 1900s is before 1900s. I can see you love pointless arguments from your activity on the Star Trek and Global Warming threads.

Jimmykay
Harley-Rebel wrote:

Jamie, let me respond by saying that "to" 1900s is before 1900s. I can see you love pointless arguments from your activity on the Star Trek and Global Warming threads.

An EXCELLENT ad hominem attack! Nicely timed!

kindaspongey
SmyslovFan wrote (about 48 hours ago):

... Nunn edited and updated several old tournament books. ...

 

SmyslovFan wrote (about an hour ago):

I may have conflated Soltis' algebraic tournament books with Nunn's algebraic game collections. ... Here is a partial list of the books that Nunn edited and updated: [list containing NO "old tournament books"] ...

Does this mean that you are now acknowledging that you have NO reason to believe that there are ANY "old tournament books" edited and updated by John Nunn?

The record showed that SmyslovFan wrote (about 3 days ago):

John Nunn analysed all of the games from several tournaments played ~1850-1930 and was shocked by just how poorly the games were played. ...

 

SmyslovFan wrote (about an hour ago):

Are you in some way suggesting that Nunn did not play through entire tournaments, including NY 1924, St. Petersburg 1914, and so on?

I make no pretense of knowing what John Nunn has played through. YOU, on the other hand, have written of him ANALYZING "all of the games from several tournaments played ~1850-1930". What, other than potential "conflation", do you have to back that up? Where is there any quote of John Nunn commenting on the result of this supposed analysis of "all of the games from several tournaments played ~1850-1930"?

SmyslovFan wrote (about an hour ago):

His statement about the old masters does not apply to a single tournament, but to the state of chess knowledge at that time.

Is there any reason to attribute your claim to anything other than "conflation" as long as you refrain from identifying a specific John Nunn quoted statement about old masters?

SmyslovFan wrote (about an hour ago):

Are you in some way suggesting ... That Nunn is in some way wrong in his conclusions regarding the 1911 tournament?

I suggest that you tackle such questions by first asking yourself if you can identify a specific quote of me suggesting such a thing.

SmyslovFan wrote (about an hour ago):

what is your point?

I don't think there needs to be any excuse for an attempt to encourage the retraction of one or more statements with no basis other than potential "conflation".

JamieDelarosa

I stand corrected.

JamieDelarosa
Harley-Rebel wrote:

Jamie, let me respond by saying that "to" 1900s is before 1900s. I can see you love pointless arguments from your activity on the Star Trek and Global Warming threads.

I always have a point, and more often than not, I'm right.

JamieDelarosa
PremiumDuck wrote:

@Jamie....You are not sorry. 

You are the type who will delve into a person's ancient past and upon finding some speck of dirt will blow it up into a pile of mud to throw at that guy. You are not a builder. 

Look at your profile pic ... a big breatsed woman who has just killed  a large earthworm who clearly had both hands up in a bid to surrender.A lot of information on you right there.

Then there is your very racist thread about ' the Indian f****r' 

Like I said I am never one to judge but you are not the class of individual I think that is conducive to building chess bridges. I will politely and formaly ask that you withdraw from this thread in a civil manner.

Take a hike, faker. Comments made within the past two weeks are not the "ancient past."

Nice try, though.

SmyslovFan

Ylblai, your attack still doesn't make any sense to me. Nunn has clearly studied the classics, and yes, I can state with certainty that he has carefully analysed every game from the Karlsbad 1911 tournament.

I can state with near certainty that he did not look at just one tournament, but many from that period, including Hastings 1895, St. Petersburg 1914, NY 1924 and others. These are standard texts from that period. This is what Nunn said:

" Like most contemporary grandmasters, I was familiar with all the standard textbook examples from the early part of the century"[Emphasis added]

He goes on to show that he is familiar with the tournament books of the past:

"Although there are exceptions, tournament books from the early part of the century seem to be strong on flowery rhetoric but weak on pointing out mistakes."

http://theweekinchess.com/john-watson-reviews/historical-and-biographical-works-installment-3


I can state with confidence that John Nunn, as an editor at a major chess publishing firm, and as a grandmaster with a strong interest in the history of chess (as commented on by Edward Winter and Gary Kasparov, among others), analysed every game from several different tournaments of that period. That is not an extreme statement. I never claimed, for example,  that he analysed every game from every tournament. 

Even if I am wrong about the specifics there, which I doubt, I still have no clue why you have taken such a deep personal interest in trying to prove me wrong. 

Nunn's statements are clear. He believes that the old masters were not nearly as good as today's masters. 

Do you disagree with the statement made by Nunn, 

"It is quite clear that the Karlsbad players were far more prone to severe errors than contemporary players. Even the leading players made fairly frequent blunders."

And his general conclusion:

"To summarize, the old players were much worse than I expected. The blunders thrown up by Fritz were so awful that I looked at a considerable number of complete games 'by hand', wondering if the Fritz results really reflected the general standard of play. They did."

JamieDelarosa
PremiumDuck wrote:

@Jamie....You are not sorry. 

You are the type who will delve into a person's ancient past and upon finding some speck of dirt will blow it up into a pile of mud to throw at that guy. You are not a builder. 

Look at your profile pic ... a big breatsed (sic) woman who has just killed  a large earthworm who clearly had both hands up in a bid to surrender.A lot of information on you right there.

Then there is your very racist thread about ' the Indian f****r' 

Like I said I am never one to judge but you are not the class of individual I think that is conducive to building chess bridges. I will politely and formaly ask that you withdraw from this thread in a civil manner.

Here is the source image:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not know the provenance, but it is readily available as wallpaper.  A friend of mine modifed it with her Photoshop skills to include a Carmen Miranda headdress.

The image has been described as a warrior woman, Amazon, fantasy warrior, etc.  It appears to me to be an image of a strong warrior woman who has slain a dragon.  An apt chess metaphor.

I don't see how you could mistake the creature for an "earthworm."  Nor are the warrior's beasts (rather than "breats") particularly exaggerated, as so often happens in fantasy art.  The idea of a strong woman must be intimidating to you, as you are so quick to minimize the imagery.

TheOldReb

The old GMs were so bad that they would easily crush anyone in this thread ! Surprised

kco
Reb wrote:

The old GMs were so bad that they would easily crush anyone in this thread ! 

careful, not with that silly warrior above you. Wink

Jimmykay
Reb wrote:

The old GMs were so bad that they would easily crush anyone in this thread ! 

Here, yet another modern chess MASTER says that these old GMs were great players. Why does no one listen these people, who are better qualified to judge that some patzer starting this thread?

I have no doubt that a USCF 18xx would get pummeled buy the likes of Lasker, or even Chigorin. The people who claim otherwise are the same fools who think that they can, at the age of 17 with a 1200 rating, someday become a GM.

SmyslovFan
Reb wrote:

The old GMs were so bad that they would easily crush anyone in this thread ! 

 

And this one:

And



 






SmyslovFan

Which of those four games were played by old masters and which were played by people who have posted here?

Rule: No fair looking up the games in databases. You may only look at the game scores themselves. You may use an engine to assist you in evaluating the quality of the games.

JamieDelarosa
kco wrote:
Reb wrote:

The old GMs were so bad that they would easily crush anyone in this thread ! 

careful, not with that silly warrior above you.Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee.

 

Han Solo: Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee.

C-3PO: But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid.

Han Solo: That's 'cause droids don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that.

JamieDelarosa
Harley-Rebel wrote:

1932 is in the first third of the 20 th century, lol.

Howard Staunton was considered by some to be below 2000 ELO standard, in spite of chessmetrics assessment. Must check a few of his games. Here's one! played a few short years before he was regarded as the best. He doesnt really get into the game and his play looks sub-1800 in this one match.

Staunton: 1 inaccuracies, 1 mistakes, 0 blunders, 17 average centipawn loss (inaccuracy Move #7, better was 0-0; mistake Move #18, better was Bxc5)

Popert: 2 inaccuracies, 3 mistakes, 0 blunders, 47 average centipawn loss

Staunton played a master level game.

casual_chess_yo
SmyslovFan wrote:

Btw, there's no way of knowing how strong players before ~1850 really were, with only a few exceptions because there are so few extant games, and many of those were "best" games. An exception is the LaBourdonnais-McDonnell matches. 

I have not done any rigorous studies of the games of the great players before Morphy. I have analysed many games from that period. I strongly suspect that Philidor was almost as strong as Morphy, but there's not really a good way of finding out because there are so few games, and we don't know the conditions those games were played in. La Bourdonnais and McDonnell were almost certainly better than Staunton, but I don't know how much better. 

I think an educated guess regarding the strength of Philidor, La Bourdonnais and McDonnell is 2200 for Philidor, 2100 for La Bourdonnais, and ~2000 for McDonnell. 

Players before 1850 were bad.  Duh.

Rumo75

If Staunton played "master level" in that game, I am Komodo running on a super-computer built by a highly developed alien race.

JamieDelarosa

Here is a game between two masters, White (2300) and Black (2600)

The computer scoring gives these masters -

White: 4 inaccuracies, 2 mistakes, 1 blunder, 37 average centipawn loss

Black: 1 inaccuracy, 0 mistakes, 1 blunders, 22 average centipawn loss


I'd call this a master-level game.  What about you?

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