How do you win a win a won game?

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MJMcCready
uhohspaghettio wrote:
Clouseau741 wrote:

The "foolish" saying was Tartakower that first say it and Keres repeats it at his book (Practical Chess Endings).I don't think they are "fools".

   Have you any idea how many won positions have been lost  even from grandmasters? Even from top class players? Even from world champions? If someone attempted to write a book about it , a  tome would not be enough.

  Winning a won position needs experience , technique and emotional discipline(for OTB games mostly). The last one is the most important and the reason many won positions are never won.

   A very interesting 11 pages!!! research  published by the Soviet(back then) Shahmaty Bulletin at November 1983, was dealing with that problem and the reasons.Studies have been made from great Soviets like Boleslavsky , Suetin and Botvinik.I don't think all these are fools.


Hey idiot. Those games weren't really won games if the GMs lost them. In the future maybe White will be considered or even proven to have won from the very first move, that doesn't mean it's practically won. Only by jumping ahead of yourself do you call a game "won" when it's not.

I never called those people fools, I said that purely in my opinion it's a foolish saying. This is just my opinion on using that saying. It contradicts itself, so I don't like it. They are obviously trying to use an idiomatic turn of expression and it is just not to my taste. I just said I did not like it.


Please modify your language accordingly. There's no need for language like that. Go to Michael Adams blog, the inspiration from the blog comes from that. He's rated over 2700 by the way, so if he is also being naive and you can demonstrate it, I'm sure he would be very interested to hear. 

mateologist
uhohspaghettio wrote:
MJMcCready wrote:

It's a cliche but as they say 'there's nothing harder than winning a won game'.


I think that's a foolish saying, it's not rational and just contradicts itself. If the game is really won then it should be clear what to do. If not, make cautious moves, WATCH OUT FOR THEIR MOVES, and eventually it should become clear what to do and then you can say the game is won. Don't try to "force" your way of winning "by rights".

Some games that appear won may be far from it, may actually be equalish, even if a person is up the exchange.

And for goodness sake even in blitz at least go one ply deep when analyzing your opponent's moves. 


You bring up an interesting point ( reframe from the name-calling). If i am your opponent and find myself on the wrong side of your won game ! The tactical minefield you must pass through on your "path" to victory combined with the desparate all-out counter-attack that will surely be coming your way is because i REFUSE to believe my opponent has mastered the art of winning the won game !! Smile

Noobiest
uhohspaghettio wrote:
Clouseau741 wrote:

The "foolish" saying was Tartakower that first say it and Keres repeats it at his book (Practical Chess Endings).I don't think they are "fools".

   Have you any idea how many won positions have been lost  even from grandmasters? Even from top class players? Even from world champions? If someone attempted to write a book about it , a  tome would not be enough.

  Winning a won position needs experience , technique and emotional discipline(for OTB games mostly). The last one is the most important and the reason many won positions are never won.

   A very interesting 11 pages!!! research  published by the Soviet(back then) Shahmaty Bulletin at November 1983, was dealing with that problem and the reasons.Studies have been made from great Soviets like Boleslavsky , Suetin and Botvinik.I don't think all these are fools.


Hey idiot. Those games weren't really won games if the GMs lost them. In the future maybe White will be considered or even proven to have won from the very first move, that doesn't mean it's practically won. Only by jumping ahead of yourself do you call a game "won" when it's not.

I never called those people fools, I said that purely in my opinion it's a foolish saying. This is just my opinion on using that saying. It contradicts itself, so I don't like it. They are obviously trying to use an idiomatic turn of expression and it is just not to my taste. I just said I did not like it.


It was a lovely discussion until this guy came in. Perhaps we should develop a system where members could add positive/negative remarks on everyone's posts, and that people with extremely negative scores wouldn't be able to post for a while. Disgraceful, really.

Back on topic, I've had my fair share of becoming overly relaxed once I'm winning only to blunder something two moves ahead and ruining everything. It's just one of those things you get to learn the hard way.

ShadowIKnight

or mark as spam comments, you cant limit some1s forum rights surely! freedom of speech! freedom of speech!

*ShadowIKnight was muted by an admin*

ShadowIKnight

Name calling is inappropriate. But should one have rights removed because of it?...
Yes.
Your a ()&!*&£(!*^*$*(!£^&("*£! = free chocalate.

RC_Woods
uhohspaghettio wrote:
Clouseau741 wrote:

The "foolish" saying was Tartakower that first say it and Keres repeats it at his book (Practical Chess Endings).I don't think they are "fools".

   Have you any idea how many won positions have been lost  even from grandmasters? Even from top class players? Even from world champions? If someone attempted to write a book about it , a  tome would not be enough.

  Winning a won position needs experience , technique and emotional discipline(for OTB games mostly). The last one is the most important and the reason many won positions are never won.

   A very interesting 11 pages!!! research  published by the Soviet(back then) Shahmaty Bulletin at November 1983, was dealing with that problem and the reasons.Studies have been made from great Soviets like Boleslavsky , Suetin and Botvinik.I don't think all these are fools.


Hey idiot. Those games weren't really won games if the GMs lost them. In the future maybe White will be considered or even proven to have won from the very first move, that doesn't mean it's practically won. Only by jumping ahead of yourself do you call a game "won" when it's not.

I never called those people fools, I said that purely in my opinion it's a foolish saying. This is just my opinion on using that saying. It contradicts itself, so I don't like it. They are obviously trying to use an idiomatic turn of expression and it is just not to my taste. I just said I did not like it.

The saying only contradicts itself if you restrict the use of 'won' to games that have concluded and that were won. It is obvious that, under this definition, no game can be won until it really is.

I think that using 'won' in any other way would be weird for most sports, but not so much for chess. This is because it is actually possible to evaluate positions during the game, and determine the size of the advantage one holds.

Of course, you could now say it makes no sense to 'measure an advantage' in a game that ultimately only knows drawn, won and lost positions. But you were the one that started talking about the practical side of things.

On the practical side of things, there are many many positions that are clearly won between engines. Save some exotic endgame positions where the cpu is misled, I don't think its practically possible for humans to beat or draw rybka with a +2 disadvantage anywhere in the game.

Therefore, from a practical point of view, you could say that a position evaluated as +2 in rybka can be considered 'won' by what is under most circumstances the highest chess authority we can reliably access. And if you are playing the side with the advantage, the evaluation very much is 'won'. If you then proceed to draw or lose, you definitely lost a win.  

Because of this, I really don't see why you're so upset about the way its phrased. You're the one that chooses to read a contradiction.

ShadowIKnight

Not overconfident, just finding the win in the win is annoying. I was up a queen against 2 pieces... hell that took a long time. and he resigned, even thuogh i actually didnt know just yet how to break through lol. But I supposed just keep trading off and trying to push that stupid pawn up the h file would eventually work, even though he had some threats to deal with etc.

1tannguyen

I wonder if there's a video lesson or book on this topic?