How good is the average chess hustler?

I recently read that Roman "Jinjin" Dzindzichashvili estimated that the late Vinnie Livermore had a strength of 2200 or 2300, but keep in mind that he was far stronger than most of the NYC hustlers.

Best,  Mark Creek-water Dorazio,  avid chess player, former NYC homeless guy

The range is all over the place but I doubt the 1600 number. I travel quite a bit for work and I seek out chess hustlers anywhere I can. I just love the energy, the trash talk, the interest in chess. I win most of the time but have been completely steamrolled plenty of times too. From my experience, I would guess they average around 1300 but range from 1000 to Master strength.

A couple of decades ago, a couple of Detroit chess hustlers (we played them at the ethnic festivals at Hart Plaza) took up classical chess and reached ratings of 2100 to 2200. Just sayin'!

https://radiopublic.com/detroit-chess-killers-WeyqnJ/ep/s1!aeaf5

I had the pleasure of playing National Master Deuvoy Carroll on numerous occasions. Can't say I remember winning against him; maybe once or twice when he gave me big material or time odds ... Another "Hart Plaza" (Detroit) player was "Fats"; he reached 2100+ in tournament play rather quickly during his chess hustling days! At a "Downriver" tournament in the Detroit area, I enjoyed watching him play Master Dexter Thompson in an exciting draw.

They're around 1600 to 1800 and are good at slight of hand. For us weaker players it's harder to track pieces without a visual aid and therefore easier to take extra pieces and sneak pawns on the board during a scramble. 

Ur a NM so ur the predator. The chess hustler is gonna be sleight of hand stealing or who knows vs ur strength but somehow the board will get away from you. Ur to good he wil lose to u circumstances will come into play wrecking pieces if u can see sleight of hand.

Nah, there's no way most of these chess hustlers are anywhere close to above 1700 or so. They will beat the average person who hardly plays chess and they should have a good shot at intermediate players with the blitz format. But there's no way people like Boston Mike would win against an IM or GM level player. I also think the idea that unknown GM level players played in the park in the 80s is a heavily romanticized view. It's equally unlikely as a GM level player being 'revealed' at older age or playing 'under the radar' for years. 

There is the video of Maurice Ashley playing a hustler and the hustler shifting a piece to a different square and arguing emphatically that the piece (after the shift) was on the correct square with the spectators agreeing.  Only the existence of the video was enough to get the hustler (and friends) to admit to the piece shift.  I am guessing that a piece shift like that in normal circumstances might have the hustler and friends working together to insist that the hustler be paid for the "fair" win.

There is an old (apocryphal?) story of a South American IM that came to New York for the New York Open (one of the big money tournaments in its years) and visited Washington Square to pick up some easy money from the hustlers there.  After getting destroyed in the games (five minutes versus the hustler's one minute and no shenanigans going on) he was so distraught that he decided he was off his game and didn't even enter the tournament - not realizing that the person he thought was a "weak hustler" was actually GM Roman Dzindzichashvili (at the time considered one of the greatest blitz players and regularly winning with one vs five in the skittles rooms between rounds of the tournaments he was playing in).

Yeah very much apocryphal indeed. There are a lot of similar stories about 'unknown GMs' wiping the floor with pretty legit chess players, however so far none of them have checked out. And whilst it is true that some GMs have played, either disguised or simply whilst not being famous enough to be noticed, a lot of the other stories are likely untrue and a glorification of chess hustling. In the modern day and age it's also pretty impossible to keep these types of things 'secret' anyway, I'm talking from whenever 'the internet' became a thing really, let alone social media.

The Dznidzi story was quite plausible (maybe still apocryphal) because he would go to Washington Square on a regular basis to win money with blitz.  The well-documented instance that would steer me away from blitz for money is the video of GM Ashley playing a hustler that make a move with his fingers while using the side of his wrist to shift a knight to protect the piece he'd just moved and then argued that the shifted knight was on its correct square when GM Ashley moved it back and he accused the GM of trying to cheat.

I'd be fine with blitz without gambling.

hey

I played one at some point when I was around 1900-ish at blitz. We traded blows. I felt like in terms of chess we were evenly matched but he played dirty--nudging pieces to adjacent squares with slight of hand. Hustlers are playing a different game.

I guess something around 1800

I know first hand the story of a friend who went to China on a roadtrip and in a random town, middle of nowhere, found some "hustlers" to play with.

My friend being a 2.3k elo IM obviously obliterated the guys, who after a few games told him they were going to call "their friend X". 

As most of you in this post he thought no f way a random Chinese guy stands a chance against a 2.3k fide elo IM. Truth is a 60+ year old guy got him into 4 straight draws with massive suffering.

Up to this day he still wonders, when going over the story, where could this guy talent brought him, had he gone through formal training and a career in chess.

Tl;Dr there's out of the charts talents there, hidden, yet it's the most unusual thing on earth.

I play around 2000-2100 ELO and I have played against hustlers that had so many opening traps and zaps memorized that I dropped 12 out of 16. 

They're playing a different game, for sure. 

Lol, an Expert Pidgeon.  Just kidding.