How good would you have to be to beat a queenless magnus

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xor_eax_eax05
pfren wrote:

Given enough time, e.g. a regular classical time control, yes, it's true that everyone rated 1300+ FIDE will consistently beat Carlsen at Queen odds.

What's so strange about it?

But I dont understand your comment. There is no chance for a 1300 strong player to beat any Super GM with Queen odds, especially, "consistently", in Classical. 

More time to think does not correlate linearly with stronger moves. I play Daily in Gameknot where Im 1700-1800 in Daily, and if I was to "think" about every move for 4 hours non-stop, I would not magically play at the 2600 level which is top player level there. There is a limit to how much someone who does not study chess could brute force combinations, how long the variations they consider would be, how they evaluate them, and how they plan long-term in positional play. Regardless of thinking time.

Also, the GMs would also use the time the 1300 is "thinking", to "think" as well. They are not a badly configured Stockfish which does not think during the opponent's think time. 

Obviously as we go higher up in rating the handicap would become more and more of an issue, but 1300 is too low of a rating to claim that.

ARenko

A queen is just too much for a slow time control.  I would think a 1600 OTB would win most games against Magnus at Queen odds at 30 minutes, maybe even quite easily.

Blitz is a completely different game, full of blunders in time pressure.  It's much easier to give material odds to weaker players in blitz.

A more interesting question is what level would a player need to be at to beat a top player like Carlsen in a classical time control at knight odds?  I don't know the answer to this question, but I suspect that Carlsen would have good chances in a classical match at knight odds against a 2000 player.

Jalex13
I spent several hours on a daily game recently calculating various lines. I sat there thinking I was playing so well until afterwords where I realized how bad it was. I do think it would be easier to beat an engine than Carlsen with Queen odds simply because of the human factor. Stockfish would see everything and give (objectively) the best reply. Magnus would give something extremely tricky and difficult to deal with.
ConfusedGhoul

I can give Magnus all of the time in the world to think, that's not going to save him from losing if I was up a Queen

xor_eax_eax05
pfren wrote:
Jalex13 wrote:
I spent several hours on a daily game recently calculating various lines. I sat there thinking I was playing so well until afterwords where I realized how bad it was. I do think it would be easier to beat an engine than Carlsen with Queen odds simply because of the human factor. Stockfish would see everything and give (objectively) the best reply. Magnus would give something extremely tricky and difficult to deal with.

 

There are no tricks when you are a queen down, unless the opponent is a beginner.  A 1300+ FIDE player (around 1600 chess dot com and 1900 LiChess) is certainly enough not a beginner. Just normal, cautious development, trade a couple of pieces, and the rest are easy. No need for flashy combos and deep strategical planning.

Surely enough I have won many exhibition games against beginners with Queen odds, but there trivial threats were ignored. This will "never" (= very rarely) happen against a 1300+ FIDE. 

 I think you are overestimating the ability of 1300 FIDE players in long time controls. 

 What makes you think they are going to play at GM level every move, and that they are not going to play subpar moves? Or blunder, even? Like the 1300 they are? If they could play so well in long time controls, they would not be 1300 in the first place. They would be higher. 

 Additionally, have you ever searched for U1400 games in Chessbase's Megadatabase, and analysed their games? It's all tactics-go-forward-gungho chess. What makes you think they are going to go cautious development and play perfect chess every move?

 You say that because you speak from the point of view of an IM - that's what you'd do, but the 1300 is 1300 for a reason and does not see the game as an IM.

 I too disagree on 1300 not being a beginner level. A few years ago a "1300" strength would not have been enough to qualify for the beginner FIDE rating (which was set to 1700), it would not have been even close.

assassin3752

I think around 2000-2300

gozaljon55

To much

cokezerochess22

Ill tell you what's a better question would they do better if they didn't know it was magnus i bet not knowing its him swings a 100-200 or so elo 

llama36
pfren wrote:

Given enough time, e.g. a regular classical time control, yes, it's true that everyone rated 1300+ FIDE will consistently beat Carlsen at Queen odds.

What's so strange about it?

Sure, "given enough time" I think most players would win with queen odds.

ConfusedGhoul

#57 this is too delusional to read, you dont have to play GM chess to win up a Queen

xor_eax_eax05
ConfusedGhoul wrote:

#57 this is too delusional to read, you dont have to play GM chess to win up a Queen

You have to when you are 1300 FIDE playing against a 2800+ FIDE. If you think you can a 1300 can win against a super gm in classical time controls just with Queen odds, you are the delusional. 

As a matter of fact, even if you did not have to play at GM level, you'd have to play consistently at a higher strength than 1300 in order to be able to convert. 

Do you think a FIDE 1300 could pull it off? If they could do it consistently, they would be higher than 1300. And they are not, they are 1300, and that's even when facing the pressure from players whose strength is far far far lower than a 2800 GM.

ConfusedGhoul

#64 what's your FIDE rating and how many tournaments have you played?

xor_eax_eax05
ConfusedGhoul wrote:

#64 what's your FIDE rating and how many tournaments have you played?

I dont have a FIDE rating and I dont see how many tournaments I've played as relevant to the conversation. 

 

Tell me, what did you eat this morning and how many times have you eaten that before? It may help your argument.

ConfusedGhoul

#66 you're confusing 1300s FIDE with 1300s online because you haven't played any tournaments! And I doubt you see any streams or recaps of low rated tournaments either... basically OTB players are much better than their online counterparts, maybe a 1300 in blitz might make some heavy blunders but not when they have an hour on their clock, please stop talking about stuff you obviously know very little about

xor_eax_eax05
ConfusedGhoul wrote:

#66 you're confusing 1300s FIDE with 1300s online because you haven't played any tournaments! And I doubt you see any streams or recaps of low rated tournaments either... basically OTB players are much better than their online counterparts, maybe a 1300 in blitz might make some heavy blunders but not when they have an hour on their clock, please stop talking about stuff you obviously know very little about

Do you even know what a Chessbase Megadatabase is?

xor_eax_eax05
pfren wrote:
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:
 

Do you even know what a Chessbase Megadatabase is?

 

I know. Please show me some games from the database with one player starting down a queen. I will analyse them, and probably change my mind.

Am I qualified to ask which is your OTB rating, or the question is too annoying?

That reply was not for you, it was for ConfusedGhoul who stated I dont watch recaps of low level tournies. Which I really dont because I do my own analysis - which is the reason I own the Megadatabase in the first place, since I dont really study chess.

If you look at my post again, you will notice I quoted his post in my reply, not yours.

ConfusedGhoul

#71 so you have seen a solid amount of games where a 1300 wins a clean Queen against someone higher rated and then loses?

xor_eax_eax05
ConfusedGhoul wrote:

#71 so you have seen a solid amount of games where a 1300 wins a clean Queen against someone higher rated and then loses?

No, usually Magnus Carlsen does not play in the 1300 elo bracket. 

DreamscapeHorizons

I'm going to guess 1400 at 30 minute time control. The faster the time control the better chances magnus has. If the control was classical I'd guess 1200 could win.

Eponym_rich

I'd beat a Bishopless Magnus in a 30 minute game.