How much of chess is luck?

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Avatar of cellomaster8
Starting to see your logic forked_again
Avatar of Richard_Hunter
forked_again wrote:

Not seeing every outcome does not make your move part luck.  You use skill to make your move.  If your opponent makes a better move you lose.  He had more skill.  It is 100% skill.  Your argument is that it is not "unlimited skill".  Limited skill does require luck.  You need to sharpen your logic.  

If we are shooting basketballs through a hoop, I will hit get more baskets than you if I have more skill.  The fact that I am not perfect and can not score on 100% of throws does not mean I am lucky when I score.  

Luck implies something outside of your control is at work to help you or hinder you.  There is no such thing in chess.  

If neither player has unlimited skill, then some of the time the player with less skill will, by chance, make a move that confounds the more skillful player. It is for this reason that Magnus Carlson doesn't win every game he plays.

Avatar of kaspariano

 

"Luck is created"--Robert Kiyosaki

 

I will say now (relating the above quote to chess);  If your opponent makes a move that gives you an opportunity to get an advantage, you still are supposed to make the right move to get it... or else your luck that time means nothing.  Opportunity and ability go hand in hand... In chess you have to put yourself in a position to be "lucky".  Most things that require some kind of doing don't include luck as the main part. 

Avatar of krudsparov

@bobbytalparov,

not true, I've played moves with a specific plan only to realise a few moves later that my plan was flawed but then realised it had opened up another v good option that I hadn't previously seen. That's luck not good play.

Avatar of Richard_Hunter
BobbyTalparov wrote:

Chess is a game of perfect knowledge. That means both players see the complete state of the system at all times..

But they do not see all possible continuations of the system. That's the point.

Avatar of abcx123

So the less you know the more luck you need.

Avatar of DiogenesDue

The only luck in a game of chess is the color selection and arguably for some whether one players dies in the middle of the game, tournament pairings, etc.

This is immaterial, though.  The game of chess as a logical construct does not include tourney rules, clocks, ratings, or any of the other external trappings heaped on top of it.  Those are rules of competition, not part of the game of chess.

Luck is not defined by someone making a mistake.  That is incompetence.  Sub-optimal move choices are not luck.  The statistical graph of probabilities above does not represent luck in chess.  It represents the chance of one rated player to outplay another rated player in any given game.

You are looking more and more like some recycled sockpuppet troll, OP.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Richard_Hunter wrote:
forked_again wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I'm not saying that chess isn't skilled based. Clearly it is. I'm questioning how much of it is luck. Unless you think that the top players can calculate every possible variation leading from each move (which isn't credible), then there must be some luck involved. I'm more interested in why people are in denial about this.

No no no!

You don't have to see infinitely deeply into a position to attribute your moves to skill.  The goal is to beat your opponent.  If you do, you had more skill than he did.  

The top players see incredibly deeply, almost like computers.  That is skill.  

The people who are better than you have more skill, if they are worse they have less skill. 

In games where luck is a component, poker for example, the outcome could be a result of something completely outside the control of the players (deal of the cards).  That is NEVER the case in chess.  

You aren't defining luck correctly.  

If you're not able to see every possible consequence resulting from a move, then you are depending, to some extent, on luck. 

Not at all.  You are relying on the other player's mistakes.

Avatar of Cornfed

Lots of luck in chess....but it depends upon how you define it.

As human's can't see everything, I see 'luck' as what your opponent does not do right. Simple.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Cornfed wrote:

Lots of luck in chess....but it depends upon how you define it.

As human's can't see everything, I see 'luck' as what your opponent does not do right. Simple.

By definition, mistakes made by your opponent are not luck.  And, by the way, even deciding to flip a coin to make a decision is not luck, only the random result is considered luck.  Deciding to flip a coin because one lacks knowledge to make a better decision is poor planning.

As for the GM argument...GMs say they "got lucky" against an opponent to avoid being rude and saying the truth, that their opponent made a bad decision.  If they say they made a "lucky" choice in their own move, they are being self-deprecating, or if they really don't know why they made a certain move over another one, they are flat out telling you they didn't understand the position well enough and picked factor A over factor B, and factor A turned out to be right.  That is not luck.  Not by any real definition of the word.

Avatar of OttoSoule

I've sometimes gotten lucky, like when I moved a bishop during a blitz game and accidentally got a checkmate. But chess is still a skill-based game (as opposed to a luck-based game, like roulette).

Avatar of forked_again

I agree with those that say it is a semantics issue.  

I don't think that an opponent playing poorly is luck.  Luck has to mean forces out of the players control.  He had free will.  He knew the options and picked the wrong one.  That is not luck that is insufficient skill at that moment.  

If we had a weight lifting contest, my opponent lifts more and wins, or less and loses.  If he lifts less I am not lucky I am superior.  If he tears a muscle and can not lift,  I was still physically superior not lucky.  

But I could see how someone would say I was lucky my opponent tore his muscle.  That's semantics, so feel free (everyone) to continue chasing your tails and pretending you have a better point than someone else by using a different definition.  I'm out!

Avatar of IM_Serious

There is no luck. Instead of making a mistake your opponent could have chosen the best move. It's not like in poker where you don't know what cards will appear next. 

Avatar of DiogenesDue
ilovesmetuna wrote:

never spotted the tickler deliberately trolling a thread before 

is this an evolutionary diversion of some sort ?

Just adding some sense to the thread, as many posters have done.  I've done this on every significant (more than a handful of posts) "chess has luck" thread posted since I got here.

Avatar of uri65
forked_again wrote:

 

In games where luck is a component, poker for example, the outcome could be a result of something completely outside the control of the players (deal of the cards).  That is NEVER the case in chess.  

Mistakes of your opponent are pretty much out of your control. You can try to induce them by various means but it's not guaranteed to work. Your own mistakes are somewhat out of your control as well. You can know a tactical pattern and see it in most cases but you can't guarantee to always see it - it's out of your control.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
uri65 wrote:
forked_again wrote:

 

In games where luck is a component, poker for example, the outcome could be a result of something completely outside the control of the players (deal of the cards).  That is NEVER the case in chess.  

Mistakes of your opponent are pretty much out of your control. You can try to induce them by various means but it's not guaranteed to work. Your own mistakes are somewhat out of your control as well. You can know a tactical pattern and see it in most cases but you can't guarantee to always see it - it's out of your control.

None of which represents luck.  Out of control is not equal to luck.  That is like saying that babies learning to walk to is a matter of luck.

Avatar of uri65
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

Unless you think that a human can calculate every variation resulting from a move, then there has to be some luck  involved. The only question for me is why people deny this?

 

That is not luck but lack of skills. You are not using a dice to decide your move. You can move whatever you like.

Exactly, but show me the player who doesn't lack skills.

 

That doesn't exists but it still not luck.

So what is it then?

 

LACK OF SKILLS!

But how and when this lack of skills will manifest itself - nobody knows and nobody can predict. There is randomness... and hence luck.

Avatar of krudsparov
BobbyTalparov wrote:
krudsparov wrote:

@bobbytalparov,

not true, I've played moves with a specific plan only to realise a few moves later that my plan was flawed but then realised it had opened up another v good option that I hadn't previously seen. That's luck not good play.

Incorrect. That is your lack of skill.

It's not incorrect,  my lack of skill at that moment lead me to a winning position, the reason I made the moves was because of a flawed plan but those moves opened up something else much better that I hadn't seen, in other words. I won because of an error of judgment not because of great chess, I got lucky.

Avatar of arthimetic

well contrary to popular beliefs the amount actually inversely varies with the skill.For skillful individuals tend to play moves that can be logically anticipated.But one intresting thing is that their will always be limit to how much you simulate the game since human beings have limits.

Avatar of DiogenesDue

Luck is not defined as the opposite of skill.  Winning by an error in judgment (yours or your opponent's) is by definition a lack of skill.  A lack of skill is not "luck".  Choosing a bad move that turns out okay because your opponent didn't know enough to take advantage of it is not "luck".