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LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:

Ok, follow up to infinite regression thing. There are a few arguments, but I suppose they all fall under this simple umbrella... which is that there is no logical sequence that begins with "we can't explain that" and ends with "therefore Christianity."

For example, we can easily imagine a God who created everything, and used up all his power and died. Or the universe itself is supernatural i.e. the universe itself is God. Or God is all powerful and never dying, but God is not interested in humans. There are so many variations, only one of which is specifically Christianity. Unfortunately for Christianity it appears exactly as a man made religion. To be clear, I think spirituality is fine, but the popular religions are very clearly man made.

Ok, so more specifically:

1) The problem of infinite regression applies to God too. For example you can ask where did God come from, and what created him?

2) Time itself is studied in physics. For example it's been proven (over and over) that our intuition is incorrect regarding time. Time flows at different rates in different places. The clocks of satellites have to be adjusted, for example, and they're adjusted exactly as much as physics predicts they'll need to be adjusted (time doesn't flow at the same rate on the surface of earth as it does in orbit)... the same physics says time didn't exist before the big bang, so asking "what came before that" or "what was the cause whose effect was the universe" is a non-question. It's like standing at the north pole and asking which way is north. You can't ask that question at the north-most point, and you can't ask "what came before" when you're at the origin of time. If that's confusing to you (and it should be) it's because your brain evolved to make you good at avoiding predators, not understanding the nature of the universe.

3) If you ignore #2, and say that there must be a supernatural first effect which had no cause, it's special pleading (a logical fallacy) but if we ignore that and say we must have a supernatural first mover then Occam’s razor says it's better you apply it to the universe itself, and not create an additional entity (God) to explain things... and if you do create a God, then the worst possible type is the kind that's infinite in every way (all powerful, all knowing, etc) because that involves the most assumptions.

Christianity did not emerge just because we could not explain the origin of the world. The story of God has been passed down from generation to generation for a long time. Adam and Eve and their children passed down their experience with God. God works with us indirectly now becaus he sees that we cannot handle his direct help. If he spoke to some random person, that guy would suddenly think he was superior, and he would almost consider himself worthy of God. In the beginning, there just was God. The bible wirtten many years ago states that God just existed and created the world, and it is up to us to believe it. Time is a funny thing; I suppose we cannot really say there is a before or a future, because time is always changing to whatever time it is currently. We had to make up numbers for it because we are so organized. Time is all one line, and every point of that line used to be current. God is not simply assumed by people of religion everywhere, he is known to have existed. You may have not even known your great great great grandfather, but you understand that he existed. You came from the ancestors because of the miracle of life. You were conceived when the spermatozoa and the egg came together, with a little bit of help from the Holy Spirit to give you consciousness.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:

There are extremely logical explanations... natural explanations, for why things exist. This includes why any specific religion exists. Christianity borrowed from other religions that were around at the time. Christianity changed what it believed over and over through the ages. The books of the bible were edited, included, or thrown out... all to better fit human's imagining of what the religion should be... and of course this continues to this day. There are countless denominations, each with various beliefs. Society creates religions, always.

Meanwhile, on the other side, the supernatural explanations make the least sense. It's not just that they're bad, they're really bad in that they make the most extreme assumptions.

It's all very silly... it makes me sad so many humans are so stupid. Honestly this is how I feel... and I suspect most people say "I believe in God" not because they actually believe. In fact they probably agree with me! It's just that they lack the education to differentiate between saying "I don't believe in God" and "I'm a bad person." To them it's the same, so they don't feel like they have a choice.

And for other reasons... I understand why religion is popular. Heuristics are very efficient. That's what religion is, IMO. They're useful rules that humans have passed down through the ages... the mythology is an artifact of how humans are natural story tellers, and can be ignored, but most of the actual rules (like don't kill) are useful in that they're heuristics...

... so it's not so bad to believe. It just means you're making an efficient decision. You want to spend the least amount of time thinking about it, and have the greatest practical effect on your life. A very reasonable choice. And it's especially reasonable to be religious if your social relationships depend on it. So I get it... your friends and family make it hard to be reasonable and say religion is nonsense.

---

Anyway, that's enough ranting for today.

The only editing that happened to the bible were not things that we wanted to think, but it was translations from older languages to newer languages, so everyone could understand. Religion is not so much created by a societal government, but by people who care. I agree with you that denominations are pretty wacky, because we would hope for something more straightforward. I was taught in my Confirmation class that all religious denominations lead to the same place. Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, Hindu, etc., God recognizes them all the same. You are not a bad person for believing in God; it was probably what your parents taught you, as it is for pretty much everyone. You may not want to believe in God because you fear what he can do, for He has the power of words. My family has brought me up as a believer, but only later in my childhood. I do not think their childhoods were super rich in religion either. I can never believe that religon is nonsense because the Holy Spitit came to me in a dream once. I had not had a great day, and I went to bed feeling discouraged and unhappy. After a while of sleeping, I felt a strong presence in my mind. I could feel like the presence was speaking to me, but I had no idea what He was saying. I know that this had nothing to with anyone in my house, because my family was all asleep when I woke up a few minutes later in the middle of the night, feeling better.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:
llama_l wrote:

For example whether poor people you've never met live or die shouldn't concern you much since they'll live forever later.

As for poor or rich people, whether they believe God has a plan for them is up to them.

Which is a good lead into my point of how religious people are immoral and my secular morality is superior. I mention people suffer, and you deflect and say it's not important, only whether they believe.

I say this because God's plans for everyone are different. In the book of Job, Job's children. livestock, and all of his possessions were taken away. Satan took these as a spiritual test. After that, Satan gave him painful skin sores. Job was very faitthful and remained faithful, despite what he had gone through and what his friends told him. His wife said: "Curse God and die!", but he told her that she sounded like a fool. (God gave Job a spiritual test.) A lot of homeless or poor people do not believe, so they may not have set themselves up for success in this life, or they were confused during their childhood about what they wanted to do with their lives. It is up to people who care not to only help them financially, and mentally, but spiritually. We are all related, and we are all equal one way or another.

LightningStorm_07
Regalbeginning wrote:

Bro wtf is wrong with y'all?

Sorry, bro. I just wanted to understand different views. I should not have started a religious debate in a chess forum.

elquesifilma
Hmm
LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

Christianity did not emerge just because we could not explain the origin of the world. The story of God has been passed down from generation to generation for a long time. Adam and Eve and their children passed down their experience with God

I mean... most Christians don't believe that so I'm not sure what to say. As far as I know most believe that stories in Genesis tell us tell us important truths about the relationship between God and humans, but they aren't historical events, they're more like metaphors... if you really believe this then I'm thinking maybe you're one of these young earth creationist types. I'm not sure how to talk to someone like that (and I don't mean that in a mean way, I just don't know what to say). Most people (and as far as I know even most Christians) don't agree with you.

All people are different, so they get different ideas from their teachings, which is what lead to different denominations. To be honest, I do not really know what most Christians would say abour creation if you asked them. I understand the Genesis story well enough to understand that God had a resounding impact on the first people, so he was well renowned even before Jesus came. The fact that you know so much about the bible and religion shows that you might have been a Christian, but then you gave up on it because you felt like God did not answer you. If not, I am sorry if I drew the wrong conclusion.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:

I'm reading the other posts... it's hard to find a point to talk about. You go from one idea to another without ever making a point... "God loves me so much that Jesus died etc etc" Yes, I know these things, you don't have to worry about telling me for the first time. I grew up Christian. Everything you've said I've already heard thousands of times... so let's skip the "God is great, you gotta believe me" and talk about reasons why someone should believe that... or not. If you don't want to talk that's fine too. But just letting you know I've heard all that stuff before.

Sorry, I did not see this message before posting my previous comment. If you did grow up Christian, why did you stop? If this is too painful for you to answer, you don't have to, or we could message each other privately. As for my ideas, I think you understand my points and my motives, whether you want to or not. I am sure that you are a great person, but giving up on God has to be a decision that you talk about with Christian counselor's, they can help you.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

If you know you are going to leave eventually without anyhting to believe in, why haven't you killed yourself?

Again, from my point of view it's the other way around. If you believe life is finite, then it automatically becomes precious. If you believe life is infinite then your time on Earth isn't important, and you can say cruel things like "it doesn't matter if those people suffer because that's just God's plan and if they accept Jesus they'll have a better time after they die."

And a more direct answer is that it's necessarily the case that extant species (such as humans) have instincts that help prevent extinction... such as the instinct to not kill yourself. This actually leads into other evolutionarily useful instincts such as empathy, which form the basis for secular morality.

If something is finite, it does not have to be considered precious. Mentioning suicide was wrong on my part, because that is plain immoral, whether you abide by your moral standards or by the Christian Commandments. Also, I would never say that people's suffering on Earth is meaningless. Since we are all related, we are supposed to help each other through hardship, and possibly prevent things like mental illness or homeless, if we could just be open with each other. Everybody feels like they have to look strong in front of other people, but exposing yourself makes you better. But, you already know that. Empathy is "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another". That is what makes communities so strong, and is why humans are still surviving. Where did secular morality come in to the community?

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

If something is finite, it does not have to be considered precious.

Sure, but in general rarity is proportional to value. Gold is more valuable than wood, for example.

I agree, but gold and wood are substances. Life can be only as valuable as you make it. If you waste it, the value of your life decreases.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

Where did secular morality come in to the community?

My point is that moral behavior (both the motivation to behave morally and how to behave morally) can come from non-religious sources. In fact I claim that it almost always does (whether or not the person is religious). When someone doesn't steal from an old lady, it's not because in their mind they're referencing their holy book, they simply have the instinct of empathy, and the logic that following the rules of a community benefits them as well.

Oh, I see. Common sense is also linked in there with empathy (everybody hears "treat other how you want to be treated"). The bible does not really dictate our judgement, it is mostly for life lessons; like in Psalms, you can find very wise quotes. We also don't hurt each other because we know they are just like us. The old lady you mentioned would be related to us if she was not hypothetical. We stayed strong as a community, not stealing from each other or hurting each other until recently. School shootings, people stealing, cheating scandals, what has happened?

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:

I have to log off for a bit.

Okay, I should probably do the same. Have a great rest of your day.

monkey-armory

Use this forum

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/56th-comment-must-close-their-account?page=1#last_comment

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

If something is finite, it does not have to be considered precious.

Sure, but in general rarity is proportional to value. Gold is more valuable than wood, for example.

I agree, but gold and wood are substances. Life can be only as valuable as you make it. If you waste it, the value of your life decreases.

I guess? It's hard to measure the value of a life. It's unclear what that even means.

In any case, it's pretty clear there is no "plan."

I'm skipping from topic to topic, but something that just came to mind, is the idea of intelligent design is pretty funny. Many (if not most) humans will die to something as simple as being outside. Seriously, how bad of a designer do you have to be that people die, many of them as young children, simply because they're outside, or they get a fever, etc.

In so many different ways, it's clear there is no god... but a child who is lied to by their parents has no defense against this. You have to wait until you're older.

I suppose that you value of your life is whatever you think it is. You are a free person, so you control your actions. Your mentality controls what how your life interacts with other lives. There are many different ways to die, but they all lead to the same thing. Personally, I would like to die of old age because it would feel more peaceful. Dying slowly of suffocation freaks me out for example. The sense of peace as you feel Jesus’s presence is worth it though. I am young, but I am no longer a child, and my parents did not lie to me. I hope that you can understand that Christianity is just as defendable as atheism.

MistakeEraser
BlunderKing1987 wrote:

I am already addicted, no question about it. Addicted to 3 min games where I usually have 10 seconds when the opponent humiliates me with having 3 minutes on his clock. It is so humiliating to play like this and seeing the opponents sending me sleeping memes. I think though I am generally better than the opponents, who just play fast. Sometimes they play so dumb I beat them with 6 seconds + the increment and they still have their 2 minutes or so. Most of the time I miss an obvious move while time pressured, and yet again a beginner has a fresh trophy under their belt.
Therefore, chess just sucks for me. Is there a way to get an admin to block my account? I've tried different things, including getting angry at the opponents and typing whatever insult came to my mind (including a message for admins to block me forever), but it just got blocked by the chat, but whatever I do, I don't get blocked.
It is a known fact that chess has ruined my life, humiliated me forever, not to mention ruining my self-esteem, thinking this intellectual game would be something I can get at least decent at. Quite the contrary, I just suck, stuck at the embarrassing 1150 level for years, only seeing people who I easily beat 6 months ago get to 1800 - like they were trying to humiliate me by this fact.
Block me if you can, otherwise you will have to see posts like this more and more often. In other words, if you want to humiliate me, don't block me.

don't me sad, just have fun, take lessons

ninjaswat

Interesting forum to read. Perhaps the OP will change how they play chess and try and do some classical on here or lichess. As for the religion arguments, thanks for mentioning that fallacy llama, it’ll be interesting to look up later.

monkey-armory

To late

Lion_Rider780

This topic needs to be closed...

LightningStorm_07
Steak-mate11 wrote:

It's no use to talk to Christians or believers of other religion for that matter about god, death and other existential issues.

The problem is they cannot think on their own. They can't live without a religion but every religion makes you believe in a set of absurd things for which there is no proof.

So they get used to not using their brain for THINKING INDEPENDENTLY but for memorizing some weird stuff like the fairy tale of creating the world, or the one about Rising of Jesus etc.

So instead of talking to such "zombies" it's better to go for a beer or even play chess.

I am not sure what religion you are, but you have Christians wrong. We have plenty of proof on our side (see above), and we think a lot about what we believe. We do not memorize the Bible’s stories, but we learn from them. The sad thing is that a lot people who denounce Christianity are people who just couldn’t handle it.

DiogenesDue
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

It is true that we did not care about our nonexistence before we were born, for we had no consciousness. However, it is still a scary thought while we are alive. Do value your live knowing that you will cease to exist? Your consciousness seems like such a gift, and the idea of dying can be scary. If you know you are going to leave eventually without anyhting to believe in, why haven't you killed yourself? Is your false sense of self-confidence telling you that it is worth it? I personally believe that God will come to judge us all, and he will forgive us. That is why Jesus died! I do not believe in God because it is convenient for me; that should never be the case. I find it so beautiful that someone can save me from eternal punishment because of everything I did wrong. We will not know until we die what is true, but I can feel that there is a higher force keeping us in place. I guess Jesus has two birthdays: his original birthday and his ressurective birthday. I am confused by the origin of his original birth, as the facts seem to be mysteriously contradicting.

Your diatribe would be more poetic and less and less of a moral parodox if the same entity supposedly responsible for saving you for eternal punishment were not the self same entity that created the eternal punishment.

DiogenesDue
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

The only editing that happened to the bible were not things that we wanted to think, but it was translations from older languages to newer languages, so everyone could understand. Religion is not so much created by a societal government, but by people who care. I agree with you that denominations are pretty wacky, because we would hope for something more straightforward. I was taught in my Confirmation class that all religious denominations lead to the same place. Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, Hindu, etc., God recognizes them all the same. You are not a bad person for believing in God; it was probably what your parents taught you, as it is for pretty much everyone. You may not want to believe in God because you fear what he can do, for He has the power of words. My family has brought me up as a believer, but only later in my childhood. I do not think their childhoods were super rich in religion either. I can never believe that religon is nonsense because the Holy Spitit came to me in a dream once. I had not had a great day, and I went to bed feeling discouraged and unhappy. After a while of sleeping, I felt a strong presence in my mind. I could feel like the presence was speaking to me, but I had no idea what He was saying. I know that this had nothing to with anyone in my house, because my family was all asleep when I woke up a few minutes later in the middle of the night, feeling better.

Note that a bad burrito you ate for dinner explains your epiphany just as readily.