I commonly deal with scandinavian as white. Is there anyway to combat this?

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JohnNapierSanDiego
tygxc wrote:

 

No, it's not.

Almost no top level player plays the Scandinavian as black.  I've done over 2000 lessons on this site.  I've watched more videos than you, taught by many GMs.  I've done a lot more lessons than you.  I've heard GM such as Simon Williams and others, as well as Youtubers such as Agadamator talk about how the Scandinavian isn't a very good opening and there are too many better openings.  You think you're disagreeing with me, but in fact I'm straight up reiterating the general consensus amongst top level players and GMs.  And if you play more chess games and study more theory and get better at chess yourself, you'll see why most GMs don't like playing the Scandinavian.  I'm not responding or wasting my time anymore with this, go educate yourself.  

tygxc

#26
Scandinavian is regularly played at GM level.
I gave a few examples of Carlsen playing it.
Get at least your facts straight.

pfren
JohnNapierSanDiego wrote:
tygxc wrote:

 

No, it's not.

Almost no top level player plays the Scandinavian as black.  I've done over 2000 lessons on this site.  I've watched more videos than you, taught by many GMs.  I've done a lot more lessons than you.  I've heard GM such as Simon Williams and others, as well as Youtubers such as Agadamator talk about how the Scandinavian isn't a very good opening and there are too many better openings.  You think you're disagreeing with me, but in fact I'm straight up reiterating the general consensus amongst top level players and GMs.  And if you play more chess games and study more theory and get better at chess yourself, you'll see why most GMs don't like playing the Scandinavian.  I'm not responding or wasting my time anymore with this, go educate yourself.  

 

There are quite a few super GM's which employ the Scandinavian with some consistency (in slow time controls- in rapid and blitz it is pretty common), and in any case this is something to bother you whenever your reach 2600+ FIDE.

MaetsNori

Inexperienced players: "The Scandinavian is bad! After dxe ...Qxe, white wins a tempo with Nc3!"

Experienced players: "Yes, but Nc3 blocks the c2 pawn. That pawn does not want to remain on c2 for the rest of the game. So white will have to eventually give the tempo back, by moving his queen knight again, in order to unblock the pawn."

Inexperienced players: "Uhh... yeah, but! ..."

llama36
IronSteam1 wrote:

Inexperienced players: "The Scandinavian is bad! After dxe ...Qxe, white wins a tempo with Nc3!"

Experienced players: "Yes, but Nc3 blocks the c2 pawn. That pawn does not want to remain on c2 for the rest of the game. So white will have to eventually give the tempo back, by moving his queen knight again, in order to unblock the pawn."

Inexperienced players: "Uhh... yeah, but! ..."

White loses a tempo first, by inviting the queen to d5... so white can't be a tempo ahead by then kicking the queen. Just count... both sides have one piece developed after 1.e5 d5 2.exd Qxd5 3.Nc3 Q-move

bananamoon

I like to play D2-D3 as a second move. After the exchange on E4 most likely the queens go off the board and you'll have a very pleasant game with white.

tygxc

#24
"the queen usually goes straight back to her starting square on her second move, which puts black an extra move behind right from the start"
++ Black loses 2 tempi: 2...Qxd5 and 3...Qd8, but white loses 1 tempo 2 exd5, so black loses just 1 tempo, that is no big deal.
Just to show the tempi, consider these 2 sequences, that lead to exactly the same position:




bananamoon

llama36
bananamoon wrote:

I like to play D2-D3 as a second move. After the exchange on E4 most likely the queens go off the board and you'll have a very pleasant game with white.

This can work surprisingly well if black doesn't know what to do and just plays normal looking moves... white can get a crushing position. I play it in bullet since 1.e4 2.d3 can be premoved.

llama36

Here's an effortless looking bullet game... plus I only used half my time tongue.png

 

 

PawnTsunami
GM_MysteriousEgg wrote:

I forgot to say, i often lose when playing against Scandinavian.

I can, with almost 100% certainty, tell you that the problem is not how you deal with the opening.  If I had to guess, you are dropping pieces in the games you lose.  Stick to general opening principles, and keep your pieces protected!

 

To give you an alternate way to deal with it, here is an example.  Not my best game in this line, but not terrible either:

 

CraigIreland

A simpler way to look at the tempo advantage against the retreated queen, is to just look at the state of the board after White's 4th move. 

White has developed two pieces, while all of Black's pieces are on their starting squares.

Presumably those who play this sequence think it's reasonable to trade the loss in tempo with the exchange of the central pawn. In my very humble opinion, unless you know where you're going with it very well, it's got to be a bad trade-off.

Ziryab

In my experience playing against the Scandinavian (if I’ve played it, it was a mouse slip), White maintains an initiative well into the middle game. Black, however, when they avoid some of the tactical pitfalls, gets a pawn structure like the Caro-Kann. A few strategic exchanges and the game is even. Sometimes things go very badly for Black, and sometimes White finds himself in trouble.

So-called weak openings are only weak when the other side plays actively and accurately. Don’t assume that is going to happen when players are below master level.

Also, most games that are lost below master level (and many master games) are lost because one player gave away free material without compensation. That’s the point of my agreement with @NervesOfButter

AtaChess68
Half a tempo here, d pawn there, all quite relative at our level.

I think i had my queen trapped over 50 times playing the Scandi. That is relavant, even on my level.

(And this time I am not joking Pfren).
pfren
AtaChess68 wrote:
Half a tempo here, d pawn there, all quite relative at our level.

I think i had my queen trapped over 50 times playing the Scandi. That is relavant, even on my level.

(And this time I am not joking Pfren).

 

Having your Queen trapped is hardly an achievement: you are neither the first, nor the last one.

But everything would be far more relative if you had one idea, or two about how the opening is played before claiming something about its soundness?

If all you know about it is letting your Queen being trapped, then sure, it's a crap opening.

tygxc

#37

"A simpler way to look at the tempo advantage against the retreated queen, is to just look at the state of the board after White's 4th move."
++ It is unfair to look after white's move: look after black's 3rd move 3...Qd8. White has 1 piece into play Nc3 and black has none, so white is 1 tempo up. After 3...Qa5 or 3...Qd6 you could say the tempo count is even, as white has Nc3 developed and black Qa5/Qd6. However, the queen has to go to c7 anyway hence lose a tempo, so the queen can be at d8 just as well as at a5 or d6. 

"it's reasonable to trade the loss in tempo with the exchange of the central pawn."
++ the pawn capture 2 exd5 loses a tempo just as well.

AtaChess68
@pfren, were do I claim something about the Scandi being unsound?
AtaChess68
@tygxc, I agree except for the queen that has to go ‘to c7 anyway’ after Qa5 has been played.

I think the queen sometimes finds her place on b6 putting extra pressure on the the d-pawn.

(But black has to be careful to avoid the earlier mentioned queen loss).
Supreme_Gamer_Girl
PoojaSengupta21 wrote:

Same here

I don't know if it helps since I'm a noob but here's a game I won in the scandinavian:



tygxc

#43, #45
That is why it is prudent for black to play ...Qc7.