If classical chess's future is dubious how can we make classical chess more interesting?

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Avatar of mpaetz

We all know that we will find better moves more often and make fewer blunders if we take a couple of minutes to think about our move. Tournaments awarding IM and GM norms and matches leading to the world championship MUST be played in conditions that allow the players to produce their very best chess. 

Most serious players want to produce the highest-quality chess they possibly can, and improve their play and their understanding of the game. This can only be accomplished by using enough time to figure out what you think is the BEST move, not the first thing you think of. 

I get a lot more satisfaction from winning a game by outplaying my opponent--achieving an advantageous position, exploiting it to achieve a winning advantage, and playing the endgame precisely to cash in the win, or coming up with a fine combination leading to a winning attack than I do from picking up a hanging piece that my opponent didn't notice because he was rushing through a fast time control.

Notice how nearly all the games you see analyzed in depth on chess.com are classical games. That's because there's more of interest in these games--who wants to analyze or study games where most of the notes would just point out mistakes and point out better moves that could have been made.

As far as more excitement and quick conclusions (instant gratification) bringing in more "fans" and more money--that's just grabbing for a few quick bucks. How many people still play the video games that were the biggest sellers ten years ago? Changing chess to become today's fad won't keep it popular tomorrow. Elvis Presley was the greatest musical sensation of his time, but how often do you hear his recordings today? Mozart is still popular worldwide 230 years after his death.

 

Avatar of NikkiLikeChikki
Stop it with the instant gratification crap. Few people think that the wcc should be blitz, just that it shouldn’t take six hours! Why should watching two people do largely nothing take six hours! The length of a movie is plenty. If you can’t come up with a decent move in that time, it should be on you.

Think about it. Too many matches are already decided in fast time controls since the long format games are drawn. If you had a 30+10 or even 45+10 format you’d have more interesting games.

Six hour matches are a travesty. The games stink. The format stinks. Make it stop.
Avatar of Mornstar7
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
Stop it with the instant gratification crap. Few people think that the wcc should be blitz, just that it shouldn’t take six hours! Why should watching two people do largely nothing take six hours! The length of a movie is plenty. If you can’t come up with a decent move in that time, it should be on you.

Think about it. Too many matches are already decided in fast time controls since the long format games are drawn. If you had a 30+10 or even 45+10 format you’d have more interesting games.

Six hour matches are a travesty. The games stink. The format stinks. Make it stop.

It seems to me other posters are being very reasonable with their responses. I think most of us of a certain age have been hearing “Classical Chess” is dying for the past 40 years. Classical will outlive all of us, simply because of the reasons we have all explained already. It seems that you just DON’T like classical, and you personally find it very boring. Many of us do not. For those who do not like it, there is rapid, blitz and bullet. But those of us who spend hundreds and even thousands of dollars a year in books and learning materials, won’t be rushing to buy books on “How to improve our blitz”, or books on collections of games from the “Blitz” or “Rapid” world championship any time soon. I simply believe in “Live and let live”. I encourage everyone to play the version of the game that best suits them. I don’t imagine anyone here wants to ban blitz or rapid from events, just because we hold that classical is the epitome of chess. You on the other hand, seem very angry with classical and would love to see it disappear and be changed into a “Lite” version of it. I don’t understand it. Many people find classical music “Boring” and constantly tell me “that music is boring and just puts me to sleep”. For those people in my life, the best music is the current top 40 pop, hip-hop and dance music. I say AWESOME. Whatever makes you happy. But nothing tickles my soul and my brain like music from the Baroque, Classical and Romantic periods. I also enjoy modern Jazz and fusion, classic rock and even European power metal. People have been saying “classical Music is dead” for literally over a century. What they really mean by that is that it’s not played in popular radio stations, on popular TV presentations and does not make even a fraction of the money that pop music makes. 

However, all Major schools of music in the world center their musical instruction on classical and Jazz, because they are the highest musical forms from which all else derives. Thousands of people keep symphony orchestras alive by going to their concerts and buying their recordings. Bach, Mozart, Handel, Beethoven, Vivaldi, Haydn, Wagner and others have survived and WILL survive the test of time. Chess has always been a fringe activity, completely outside of the mainstream. It has survived under those conditions for many hundreds of years. If the mainstream forgets it again, chess lovers will keep it alive as they always have. No need to please the mainstream by altering it in any way. Not even the computer revolution will undo chess. Simply because even if computers “Solve” chess to they point of being able to announce “Forced Mate in 50 moves” right out of the opening, good luck finding a human being who is able to force that mate by memorizing the mane hundreds of thousands of possible lines that lead to that forced mate in 50. I suspect that as long as there are humans in the universe, there will be classical music, and there WILL be chess at the highest level. 

Avatar of 2Kd21-0

BUMP

Avatar of NikkiLikeChikki
The games in the Airthings Masters were brilliant! Rajabov, Aronian, and especially Dubov’s games were spectacular! Play was risky and the games were beautiful. It was a delight for chess fans.

Insert slow chess: players have six hours to calculate every possible variation and find a draw, players become risk averse, and sludge ensues.

We can’t ever go back. The peasants will bring out the pitchforks and storm the castle. Carlsen’s initial claim was about how the new chess is exciting and fun and people expect it to be exciting and fun. The revolution is here. Classical chess has become niche.
Avatar of Zjlm1015
1) community engagement
Schools can start electives after school, create chess clubs etc.. at young ages

2) pop culture inclusion (less controllable)
Queens gambit on netflix caught a lot of eyes, probably boosted chess playing substantially for a brief period

3) more prevalence

Bragging rights, connecting the history to sings of intelligence, competitions etc..
Avatar of 2Kd21-0
Zjlm1015 wrote:
1) community engagement
Schools can start electives after school, create chess clubs etc.. at young ages

2) pop culture inclusion (less controllable)
Queens gambit on netflix caught a lot of eyes, probably boosted chess playing substantially for a brief period

3) more prevalence

Bragging rights, connecting the history to sings of intelligence, competitions etc..

good points @Zjlm1015

Avatar of 2Kd21-0
Hdhxhhddb wrote:

[deleted-UpbeatAngle]

A I think you mean Saddam Hussein B what about is relevant to the discussion at hand @Hdhxhhddb

Avatar of krazeechess

no castle chess

Avatar of krazeechess
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
The games in the Airthings Masters were brilliant! Rajabov, Aronian, and especially Dubov’s games were spectacular! Play was risky and the games were beautiful. It was a delight for chess fans.

Insert slow chess: players have six hours to calculate every possible variation and find a draw, players become risk averse, and sludge ensues.

We can’t ever go back. The peasants will bring out the pitchforks and storm the castle. Carlsen’s initial claim was about how the new chess is exciting and fun and people expect it to be exciting and fun. The revolution is here. Classical chess has become niche.

it is very unfortunate, i like classical chess waaay more than blitz and shorter games.

Avatar of NikkiLikeChikki
It depends upon how one defines unfortunate. For chess fans, spectacular play is a boon for almost everyone. If it’s because you like to actually play slow chess, well, you can still do that.

Faster chess brings back games to the Romantic era. It makes games like the ones Tal played possible again. Endless preparation and long time controls leading to calculating the very best response killed spectacular play, but now it’s back and we can’t put the genie back into the bottle.
Avatar of mpaetz

In the actual Romantic era (mid 19th century) there were NO time controls. Those great games of Tal's you admire were played with classical time controls, as were ALL the brilliancies of the past. Players simply cannot come up with as many top-quality moves with so little time to find them. 

Avatar of NikkiLikeChikki
You miss the obvious.

There were no time controls but it didn’t matter! There was no deep and perfect computer preparation, theory was imperfect, and playing slow positional games was frowned upon.

That’s why games were beautiful, not the lack of a time control. Giving players less time to perfectly calculate every move to a drawn position makes the games more like those of previous eras. That’s why faster games are more interesting.
Avatar of blueemu

Tal's games were played at 40 moves in two-and-a-half hours time control.

You have to go back to the 1880s or earlier to find tournaments with unlimited time control.

So... before Lasker (WCC 1894).

Avatar of LeeEuler

No castle, exclusively 1-square pawn moves, no en passant, no stalemate and 2hr no increment would do the trick, but I like classical. Though I would prefer shorter games.

Avatar of NikkiLikeChikki
And truth be told, Tal’s play became more boring as time passed and theory developed. Tal himself said that his play he didn’t stop playing as well, just that other players learned how to spot and prevent his splashy sacrifices.
Avatar of blueemu

Tal's health also deteriorated as time went on. Alcohol and drugs took a toll on him. So it's hard to separate the two effects... the competition improving vs Tal deteriorating.

Certainly he couldn't dominate the way he did in the pre-Fischer era.

Avatar of NikkiLikeChikki
@Lee why butcher the game if all you have to do is give players 30 minutes instead of 3 hours? You don’t need to change the rules, just the time controls. This is why the Google A0 rule tinkering experiment came and went with barely a whimper. The solution is obvious. Games are great again.
Avatar of NikkiLikeChikki
Tal actually went 95 games without a loss in the early 1970s and he won the 1979 Riga Interzonal without a loss, and in the same year he tied for first with Karpov in Monreal. He also finished fourth in the 1985 Candidate’s, so he was still one of the best players in the world even as he entered middle age. Many recent healthy ex champions can’t make the same claim.
Avatar of Jenium
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
It depends upon how one defines unfortunate. For chess fans, spectacular play is a boon for almost everyone. If it’s because you like to actually play slow chess, well, you can still do that.

Faster chess brings back games to the Romantic era. It makes games like the ones Tal played possible again. Endless preparation and long time controls leading to calculating the very best response killed spectacular play, but now it’s back and we can’t put the genie back into the bottle.

The funny thing is that all the great players like Tal, Rajabov and Aronian (and even Nakamura and Botez), didn't get so strong by playing Blitz or Rapid or "Hand and Brain", but by spending hours over chess positions.

I agree that 6 hours are a bit excessive these days... especially in amateur tournaments when you have to play two games a day. But I don't think 30 minutes games should be the new standard time control.

Also why would you want to bring the Romantic Era back, where it was considered "unmanly" to decline a gambit? I suppose you wouldn't tell authors or painters to trash modernism?