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If I sell my soul to the devil will I become the best Chess player in the world?

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Ziryab
Ziryab
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Apr 8, 2010
0
#61
Writch wrote:

Clearly off the mark, Ziryab. Sure maybe a variation of a theme, but in the Faustian leitmotif, it was a bargain, an exchange. In the American pop-song, ther was a wager, a gamble... and even the title suggested downright thievery.

Still an interesting study in cultural cross-pollination of archetypes.

Nope. When you interject the American myth of self-reliance, it accounts for all the differences between Faust's original bargain and the version put forth by Charlie Daniels Band. Perhaps you erred in thinking of "idiom" merely as a linguistic reference, rather than the broader cultural terms in which it was employed.

nimzo5
nimzo5
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Apr 8, 2010
0
#62
Ziryab wrote:
Writch wrote:

Clearly off the mark, Ziryab. Sure maybe a variation of a theme, but in the Faustian leitmotif, it was a bargain, an exchange. In the American pop-song, ther was a wager, a gamble... and even the title suggested downright thievery.

Still an interesting study in cultural cross-pollination of archetypes.

Nope. When you interject the American myth of self-reliance, it accounts for all the differences between Faust's original bargain and the version put forth by Charlie Daniels Band. Perhaps you erred in thinking of "idiom" merely as a linguistic reference, rather than the broader cultural terms in which it was employed.

 hmm.... I think the variations need to be checked. Not sure The Mountain Whippoorwill was at all influenced by Goethe.

bigpoison
bigpoison
Apr 8, 2010
0
#63
Ziryab wrote:
Writch wrote:

Clearly off the mark, Ziryab. Sure maybe a variation of a theme, but in the Faustian leitmotif, it was a bargain, an exchange. In the American pop-song, ther was a wager, a gamble... and even the title suggested downright thievery.

Still an interesting study in cultural cross-pollination of archetypes.

Nope. When you interject the American myth of self-reliance, it accounts for all the differences between Faust's original bargain and the version put forth by Charlie Daniels Band. Perhaps you erred in thinking of "idiom" merely as a linguistic reference, rather than the broader cultural terms in which it was employed.

That's a stretch.  How can one err by defining a term by its definition?

TheGrobe
TheGrobe
Apr 8, 2010
0
#64

Perhaps he erred by choosing the word idiom instead of the more appropriate archetype.

bigpoison
bigpoison
Apr 8, 2010
0
#65

Writch didn't choose the word "idiom".

Writch
Writch
Apr 8, 2010
0
#66
TheGrobe wrote:

Perhaps he erred by choosing the word idiom instead of the more appropriate archetype.

Technically speaking, there should be no "American" archetype, right? Aren't archetypes by definition universal (in the Jungian sense)?

I'll concede that the motif is the same: Pact with the Devil.

To get back to Faust vs. Johnny...

Faust approaches the Devil via his agent Mephistopholes for more knowledge - he is already at the pinnacle of his so-called career; Faust initiates this pact - he is the solicitor.

Johnny, with no such ambition or hubris, on the other hand is approached by the Devil. In this case, Johnny is more like Job (a test of faith), not Faust (a test of morality) .

@Grobe: I like your analysis about how it was turned on it's head: test of skill already aquired vs. a test to aquire a skill.

But we digress, back to Mr. Eo____'s quandry....

Eo_____: I'd say you're better off implementing "Plan B" - taking care of everyone else. Altruism and adherence to the Golden Rule is aligning your synergy with a more leveraged partner. That is what you meant, right?

Surely you weren't threatening us all? Isn't that against the site's Terms?

-Near-
-Near-
Apr 8, 2010
0
#67

Who could have anticipated that one of Eo's threads would actually turn out to be interesting?

TheGrobe
TheGrobe
Apr 8, 2010
0
#68
bigpoison wrote:

Writch didn't choose the word "idiom".

I was referring to Ziyrab, who did.

Atos
Atos
Apr 8, 2010
0
#69
Writch wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

Perhaps he erred by choosing the word idiom instead of the more appropriate archetype.

Technically speaking, there should be no "American" archetype, right? Aren't archetypes by definition universal (in the Jungian sense)?

 

 

Yes, but it doesn't prevent cultures from perceiving them as their own property. Their treatment can vary a little from one place or time to another, just as Goethe's Faust is a little different from Marlowe's Doctor's Faustus. (And J.C. is different from Socrates, although not by that much.)

TheGrobe
TheGrobe
Apr 8, 2010
0
#70
Writch wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

Perhaps he erred by choosing the word idiom instead of the more appropriate archetype.

Technically speaking, there should be no "American" archetype, right? Aren't archetypes by definition universal (in the Jungian sense)?

...

American archetype is precicely what I was going for, but yes, in the Jungian sense cultural archetypes shouldn't exist.  There's probably an even better word, but I'm at a loss for it.

Kupov3
Kupov3
Apr 8, 2010
0
#71
Writch wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

Perhaps he erred by choosing the word idiom instead of the more appropriate archetype.

Faust approaches the Devil via his agent Mephistopholes for more knowledge - he is already at the pinnacle of his so-called career; Faust initiates this pact - he is the solicitor.

It's been awhile since I read (Goethe's - excuse me if you're referring to the opera.) Faust, but I'm pretty sure that Mephistopheles approaches Faust as part of his bet with God. Faust being bored with his life of what he sees as pointless academia, profound ignorance and pretense, agrees to Mephistopheles terms. I'm a little hazy on what the terms actually were, but as I recall it had something to do with Faust, upon becoming bored, or rather un-enthused by life would accompany Mephistopheles to Hell.

Atos
Atos
Apr 8, 2010
0
#72
TheGrobe wrote:
Writch wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

Perhaps he erred by choosing the word idiom instead of the more appropriate archetype.

Technically speaking, there should be no "American" archetype, right? Aren't archetypes by definition universal (in the Jungian sense)?

...

American archetype is precicely what I was going for, but yes, in the Jungian sense cultural archetypes shouldn't exist.  There's probably an even better word, but I'm at a loss for it.

Memes ?

TheGrobe
TheGrobe
Apr 8, 2010
0
#73
Atos wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:
Writch wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

Perhaps he erred by choosing the word idiom instead of the more appropriate archetype.

Technically speaking, there should be no "American" archetype, right? Aren't archetypes by definition universal (in the Jungian sense)?

...

American archetype is precicely what I was going for, but yes, in the Jungian sense cultural archetypes shouldn't exist.  There's probably an even better word, but I'm at a loss for it.

Memes ?

No, more like something that captures the holistic cultural identity than just a component of it.  Mores perhaps?

TheGrobe
TheGrobe
Apr 8, 2010
0
#74

I sold my sole to the devil.

He may be a sucker, but I've got collapsed arches.

eXecute
eXecute
Apr 8, 2010
0
#75

Why won't this thread end?!??!

TheGrobe
TheGrobe
Apr 8, 2010
0
#76

It sold it's soul to the devil for eternal life.

Clever, really.  The devil can never collect.

Atos
Atos
Apr 8, 2010
0
#77
eXecute wrote:

Why won't this thread end?!??!

Lol are you jealous ?

Ziryab
Ziryab
Show your flair!
Apr 8, 2010
0
#78
bigpoison wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
Writch wrote:

Clearly off the mark, Ziryab. Sure maybe a variation of a theme, but in the Faustian leitmotif, it was a bargain, an exchange. In the American pop-song, ther was a wager, a gamble... and even the title suggested downright thievery.

Still an interesting study in cultural cross-pollination of archetypes.

Nope. When you interject the American myth of self-reliance, it accounts for all the differences between Faust's original bargain and the version put forth by Charlie Daniels Band. Perhaps you erred in thinking of "idiom" merely as a linguistic reference, rather than the broader cultural terms in which it was employed.

That's a stretch.  How can one err by defining a term by its definition?

Lexicons are descriptive devices, not prescriptive. One errs by divorcing connotation from denotation and foreclosing upon the possibility of connotation.

Faust's bargain was neither the first Faustian bargain, nor the last. Robert Johnson's alleged bargain resembles Faust's more closely, but Johnny's fiddlin' contest adheres more closely to mainstream American mythology with southern twist.

If you cannot follow reason and need authority, look at the fourth definition below:

id·i·o·mat·ic (d--mtk)

adj.
1.
a. Peculiar to or characteristic of a given language.
b. Characterized by proficient use of idiomatic expressions: a foreigner who speaks idiomatic English.
2. Resembling or having the nature of an idiom.
3. Using many idioms.
4. Peculiar to or characteristic of the style or manner of a particular group or people.
bigpoison
bigpoison
Apr 9, 2010
0
#79
Ziryab wrote:
bigpoison wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
Writch wrote:

Clearly off the mark, Ziryab. Sure maybe a variation of a theme, but in the Faustian leitmotif, it was a bargain, an exchange. In the American pop-song, ther was a wager, a gamble... and even the title suggested downright thievery.

Still an interesting study in cultural cross-pollination of archetypes.

Nope. When you interject the American myth of self-reliance, it accounts for all the differences between Faust's original bargain and the version put forth by Charlie Daniels Band. Perhaps you erred in thinking of "idiom" merely as a linguistic reference, rather than the broader cultural terms in which it was employed.

That's a stretch.  How can one err by defining a term by its definition?

Lexicons are descriptive devices, not prescriptive. One errs by divorcing connotation from denotation and foreclosing upon the possibility of connotation.

Faust's bargain was neither the first Faustian bargain, nor the last. Robert Johnson's alleged bargain resembles Faust's more closely, but Johnny's fiddlin' contest adheres more closely to mainstream American mythology with southern twist.

If you cannot follow reason and need authority, look at the fourth definition below:

id·i·o·mat·ic (d--mtk)

adj.
1.
a. Peculiar to or characteristic of a given language.
b. Characterized by proficient use of idiomatic expressions: a foreigner who speaks idiomatic English.
2. Resembling or having the nature of an idiom.
3. Using many idioms.
4. Peculiar to or characteristic of the style or manner of a particular group or people.

Careful, man.  Tonydal might see that!

Writch
Writch
Apr 9, 2010
0
#80
Ziryab wrote:

If you cannot follow reason and need authority, look at the fourth definition below:

No need to get snippy.

Adjective: snippy (snippier,snippiest)  sni-pee

  1. Marked by rude or peremptory shortness
    "try to cultivate a less snippy manner";
    - brusque, brusk [non-standard], curt, short
     
  2. Tending to speak in a critical, harsh or sarcastic way
    - sharp-tongued