Improving One’s Position Is…

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Avatar of Ziryab

The starting position is symmetrical, but not without weaknesses. In particular, the squares f2 and f7 are weak, but also neither player has any substantive control of the board.

White plays 1.e4 with the purpose of assaulting the weakness on f7. Although this move slightly weakens f3, e3, and d3, it opens lines for pieces that can assert their power through much of the board (with particular attention to f7) and stakes a claim on such important squares as f5 and d5.

Black has a number of choices that strive for equilibrium and prevent White's aggressive strategy from developing into a winning advantage.

1.e5 mimics White's plan and holds the advantage of the first move to a single tempo.

1.c5 prepares to meet the first player's threats with counter-threats.

1.d5 undermines the center and creates an imbalance in the pawn structure.

1.e6 lets the aggressor know that threats against f7 are futile, but blocks Black's light-squared bishop. If White aggressive hopes are pathological, Black may gain an advantage, but with vibrant positional play, Black may suffer a bit and expect to defend accurately for many moves to maintain relative equality.

There are sixteen more possibilities for Black. Although none immediately render the game winning for White, most are sufficiently weak that a series of such moves will represent the failure of Black's reasoning that White seeks.

Avatar of Loomis
Ziryab wrote:

White plays 1.e4 ... this move slightly weakens f3, e3, and d3


I admit, this is completely nit-picking, but I think 1. e4 doesn't weaken e3. It probably makes it just slightly stronger since it is now within white's territory.

Avatar of Ziryab
Loomis wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

White plays 1.e4 ... this move slightly weakens f3, e3, and d3


I admit, this is completely nit-picking, but I think 1. e4 doesn't weaken e3. It probably makes it just slightly stronger since it is now within white's territory.


Let's call it a typo. Thanks for the catch.

Avatar of polydiatonic
Musikamole wrote:
polydiatonic wrote:
Musikamole wrote:
notlesu wrote:
Musikamole wrote:
Shivsky wrote:

Everyone who has a problem coming to grips with this concept need only look at the E score in their favorite engine at all the positions/scenarios described above. 

Evaluation assumes best play ... that is all that this thread is about. Nothing more!!!!

If you're going to keep arguing around that, we might as well take potshots at pythagoras ... I hear his theorem may be busted ... 


Now look what you've done. The topic went from chess to pythagoras.

Making the complex simple:  "You can play better moves than your opponent, but you can't play a move better than your last move." - Me 

I read the discussion on checkmate. Excellent! Checkmate is nothing more than the unavoidable consequence after player A does not adhere to the four basic elements of chess as well as player B: Force, Time, Space and Pawn Structure.


1. Musikamole, do you mind if I ask you what your uscf rating is? Personally,I think 2. you talk a pretty good game and I was wondering if your rating matches your rhetoric. I'm going to be disappointed if you have 1200 rating.

I like people who are explaining the deep mysteries of chess to be at least above the novice level.

Musikamole, how would you relate this to music? 3. Would you tell a young child that no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how much you practice---that horn aint never going to sound any better than it does right now. Improvement---no way Jose. you will never improve. Just try to play that horn less badly than the other guy. No wonder we have so many kids playing video games.  


1. I don't mind. I am a proud member of USCF, with a card and everything. My summer plan was to travel about 120 miles one way this summer to attend the nearest USCF event in Los Angeles. My health and pending pay cut as a California music teacher sadly precluded me from attending this event, so, at this very moment, I am an unrated player. I envy folks in towns rich in chess activity. If there was a club in the tri-city where I live, I'd be there most every night playing OTB and would have had a rating many months ago.

2. I am a college educated man with about 60 chess books that were purchased in under one year, many of which are classics with great depth. This is my new hobby, and with any hobby I've had over my 50 years, I go into it all the way.

3. Would I tell a child that no matter what, "that horn aint never going to sound any better than it does right now".

I've been a band and orchestra teacher for 25+ years and have told children that on numerous occasions!   Yep. I tell them to take the horn back to the music store because even I can't make it sound any better. It's broken!

Unlike chess, playing a musical instrument is not a zero sum persuit. Music behaving like chess would be down right depressing. 

My students experience any one of three possible outcomes:

1. Students play better today than a few days ago because they applied my favorite word - practice. 

2. A brass player is worse than he was a week ago because he did not practice his lip slurs, thus his lip got out of shape and his sound has regressed to that of what we call "toilet tone".

3. The student sadly makes no progress, nor gets worse. This is a common senario for the gifted and talented who rarely practice. They get lazy.


By the way I've been (and still am) a band/music teacher too; almost 30 years.  Teach/taught Jazz Band, college music theory and history,  jazz arranging and improvisation...And, I still disagree with your basic premise. Sorry, but I do :)


I had my suspicions raised with the name polydiatonic. I'm still not sure what it means when those two words are made into one. I know what the words polyphonic and diatonic both mean, but polydiatonic?

Oh my! You have the job I would love to have at this stage in my life! I had a great time at North Texas State University (now UNT) back in 1978-1982. I played guitar in the 3 O'Clock Lab Band and greatly enjoyed the teachings of Dan Haerle, Jack Peterson and Rich Matteson. I received a jazz arranging scholarship funded by Henry Mancini from Leon Breeden - the founder and director of the largest jazz program in the U.S. at the time.

Dan Haerle taught a great class on jazz music theory and improvisation. I still have his books.

Jack Peterson taught jazz guitar and I played in his jazz guitar big band - 5/5/5 plus bass and drums. I started out in the band covering the first trombone part - reading bass cleff! I graduated to the sax section where the lines went by very fast.

I first met Rich Matteson in 1976 at a Stan Kenton Jazz Clinic in Sacramento, California. Rich was playing his euphonium in a classroom with me and a few others hanging around and he played some melodies that were foreign to my ears. I asked him what he was doing as I had my ear pressed up against the bell, and he said he was playing Bebop. Well, that forever changed the course of my life!

I went twice to the Stan Kenton Jazz Clinic and had my own big band arrangements played and recorded by his band as I directed. All students had this opportunity to have their charts played. It was so cool and I still have the recordings.

---

I see NM Dan Hesiman made a post.


Well then we have 1 degree of seperation.  One of my jazz mentors is a fellow by the name of Ray Brown.  He was the "jazz chair" trumpeter in Kenton's band in the early 70's.  He's the guy who taught me much of what I know about jazz theory and also the who'd helped me here and there with college teaching jobs here in California.

Polydiatonic is a word I invented to express they way I view how most post 40's jazz works.  In otherwords it's diatonic, but the nature of the harmonic movement interms of key structure is polytonal.   So, from moment to moment it's diatonic (with exceptions of course) but the constant modulations makes it polydiatonic, thus my handle :)

Avatar of Musikamole
Elubas wrote:
Musikamole wrote:

Black's position is worse than it was at the start because he made mistakes by moving his knights back and forth. White's position has improved only because Black failed to develop, not because White developed.


1. Depends on your point of view. You could argue that it's not that black's position got worse, it's that white's position got better while black didn't similarly improve, making his position more inferior to white's than it was at the start. So relative to white's position, black's position got worse, but objectively, black is just as underdeveloped as he was on move one.

2. Yes, you seem to define improving one's position as not actually improving it, just making it more superior to the other side's position. Correct? I think many people are talking about the position itself getting better or worse. If black had played correctly no side's advantage or disadvantage would increase, but that's not because neither side strategically improved their position, it's that they both did equally.


I received a very helpful e-mail from NM Dan Heisman and he understands that there will not be 100% agreement between good chess players on this topic.

1. It's perhaps more than a point of view. Mathematicians seem to see it as fact. Dan Heisman got his bachelor's degree in mathematics, however, he went to someone more advanced in math to take a look at his article, Harvard Professor of Mathematics Noam Elkies. Professor Elkies also has a USCF master’s title. For further reading on how mathematics applies to this topic and also what Steinitz thought, I encourage you to read a very short article by Heisman at this link: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles358.pdf

2. This is my current understanding. A person cannot make the position superior, but one's position can become superior as a result of an error from the other person. Also, the position by itself cannot get better or worse. One chess player must make the position worse for the position to get better for the other player. I believe that this idea all hinges on the premise that the game begins with equal chances for each player to win.

This quote might help clarify what I believe about White's position at the beginning. I don't see the word winning and the word initiative as synonymous. White does have the initiative, but both White and Black have equal chances of winning. Why would anyone want to play chess if White always has a better chance of winning? 

"As another example, take the initial position of a game. Consider what happens when White plays 1.e4. Indeed, afterwards, White has more central control and greater piece mobility, but in return he has given up the move. If 1.e4 is White’s best move, then playing it has reached the potential of the position, nothing more, and White’s position has not improved."  -  NM Dan Heisman

Avatar of polydiatonic
Musikamole wrote:
Elubas wrote:
Musikamole wrote:

Black's position is worse than it was at the start because he made mistakes by moving his knights back and forth. White's position has improved only because Black failed to develop, not because White developed.


1. Depends on your point of view. You could argue that it's not that black's position got worse, it's that white's position got better while black didn't similarly improve, making his position more inferior to white's than it was at the start. So relative to white's position, black's position got worse, but objectively, black is just as underdeveloped as he was on move one.

2. Yes, you seem to define improving one's position as not actually improving it, just making it more superior to the other side's position. Correct? I think many people are talking about the position itself getting better or worse. If black had played correctly no side's advantage or disadvantage would increase, but that's not because neither side strategically improved their position, it's that they both did equally.


I received a very helpful e-mail from NM Dan Heisman and he understands that there will not be 100% agreement between good chess players on this topic.

1. It's perhaps more than a point of view. Mathematicians seem to see it as fact. Dan Heisman got his bachelor's degree in mathematics, however, he went to someone more advanced in math to take a look at his article, Harvard Professor of Mathematics Noam Elkies. Professor Elkies also has a USCF master’s title. For further reading on how mathematics applies to this topic and also what Steinitz thought, I encourage you to read a very short article by Heisman at this link: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles358.pdf

2. This is my current understanding. A person cannot make the position superior, but one's position can become superior as a result of an error from the other person. Also, the position by itself cannot get better or worse. One chess player must make the position worse for the position to get better for the other player. I believe that this idea all hinges on the premise that the game begins with equal chances for each player to win.

This quote might help clarify what I believe about White's position at the beginning. I don't see the word winning and the word initiative as synonymous. White does have the initiative, but both White and Black have equal chances of winning. Why would anyone want to play chess if White always has a better chance of winning? 

"As another example, take the initial position of a game. Consider what happens when White plays 1.e4. Indeed, afterwards, White has more central control and greater piece mobility, but in return he has given up the move. If 1.e4 is White’s best move, then playing it has reached the potential of the position, nothing more, and White’s position has not improved."  -  NM Dan Heisman


So, this is my question: Does this way of thinking about things have any bearing whatsoever on how to play a good game of chess?  I think not.  To me this is just a sort of an "ivory tower" discussion of, I guess,  game theory.   Where is the "meat" in this discussion?  How, in any way, is this mathematical "understanding" going to help anyone play better?  And, if it doesn't then what really is the point?

Avatar of Elubas

There is none.

Avatar of Musikamole
polydiatonic wrote:
Musikamole wrote:
Elubas wrote:
Musikamole wrote:

Black's position is worse than it was at the start because he made mistakes by moving his knights back and forth. White's position has improved only because Black failed to develop, not because White developed.


1. Depends on your point of view. You could argue that it's not that black's position got worse, it's that white's position got better while black didn't similarly improve, making his position more inferior to white's than it was at the start. So relative to white's position, black's position got worse, but objectively, black is just as underdeveloped as he was on move one.

2. Yes, you seem to define improving one's position as not actually improving it, just making it more superior to the other side's position. Correct? I think many people are talking about the position itself getting better or worse. If black had played correctly no side's advantage or disadvantage would increase, but that's not because neither side strategically improved their position, it's that they both did equally.


I received a very helpful e-mail from NM Dan Heisman and he understands that there will not be 100% agreement between good chess players on this topic.

1. It's perhaps more than a point of view. Mathematicians seem to see it as fact. Dan Heisman got his bachelor's degree in mathematics, however, he went to someone more advanced in math to take a look at his article, Harvard Professor of Mathematics Noam Elkies. Professor Elkies also has a USCF master’s title. For further reading on how mathematics applies to this topic and also what Steinitz thought, I encourage you to read a very short article by Heisman at this link: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles358.pdf

2. This is my current understanding. A person cannot make the position superior, but one's position can become superior as a result of an error from the other person. Also, the position by itself cannot get better or worse. One chess player must make the position worse for the position to get better for the other player. I believe that this idea all hinges on the premise that the game begins with equal chances for each player to win.

This quote might help clarify what I believe about White's position at the beginning. I don't see the word winning and the word initiative as synonymous. White does have the initiative, but both White and Black have equal chances of winning. Why would anyone want to play chess if White always has a better chance of winning? 

"As another example, take the initial position of a game. Consider what happens when White plays 1.e4. Indeed, afterwards, White has more central control and greater piece mobility, but in return he has given up the move. If 1.e4 is White’s best move, then playing it has reached the potential of the position, nothing more, and White’s position has not improved."  -  NM Dan Heisman


So, this is my question: Does this way of thinking about things have any bearing whatsoever on how to play a good game of chess?  I think not.  To me this is just a sort of an "ivory tower" discussion of, I guess,  game theory.   Where is the "meat" in this discussion?  How, in any way, is this mathematical "understanding" going to help anyone play better?  And, if it doesn't then what really is the point?


"Where is the meat in this discussion?" That remeinds me of an old Wendy's commercial - "Where's the beef!" Laughing

@polydiatonic - I like your handle. Thanks for the explanation. Smile

Here's the meat of the discussion and why it's important to understand in order to play better chess. After reading pages 63-64 for the 100th time or more from "Elements of Positional Evaulation", I felt very excited to share what I had learned - like a son who wants to tell his dad what he just accomplished. Moreover, I was wondering if anyone else saw chess in this way. I later discovered that it can cause a spirited debate! Laughing

The meat, the point and the importance.

2.7 Time

"The last two elements, 'time' and 'speed', are not static, but dynamic-they involve the motion of the pieces. However, neither is tactical, and thus are positional evaluation elements. ... An important bit of 'chess logic' emphasises the correct importance of time. This theorem, based upon game theory, states that 'One's position cannot be better after a move that it was before!' While at first seemingly illogical, this theorem is one of the most important things a chess analyst should know..."   - Dan Hesiman

"this theorem is one of the most important things a chess analyst should know"   That got my attention. Laughing

The biggest advantage I enjoy over my other beginning chess opponents is the understanding of tempo, which many beginners still don't grasp. Nine out of ten times, whether I play White or Black, I am way ahead in development because I understand the importance of time, whereas my opponents waste time.

This "ivory tower" stuff takes chess one step further for me. Somewhere in my first year of playing chess I wanted to quit because it seemed like the better one gets, the more likely it is that the game will become terribly boring with drawn games. The really good players rarely hang pieces, so it's just a handshake at the end with no checkmate! Ugh!

Silman helped me get over this hump for a time when he opened my mind to the idea of imbalances. So, I went about emulating the playing style of Karpov, at a much reduced playing strength!

Finally, Heisman surprisingly lifted the last bit of depression over this drawish game called chess with what I feel is a deeper appreciation and understanding of time. It's difficult to articulate, but my playing has gotten better, and I do believe it's because of this new perspective. Smile

Avatar of Ziryab

Whether a theoretical discussion has bearing on practical skills depends immensely on the level of intelligence one brings to bear on the game. For the vast majority of chessplayers of average intelligence, it is of minimal value. For the "talented tenth" (to rip off W.E.B. DuBois' old term), theorie is always already praxis.

Avatar of Elubas

Actually, I always thought it was common sense that a game could only be one from mistakes.

Avatar of MyCowsCanFly
Ziryab wrote:

Whether a theoretical discussion has bearing on practical skills depends immensely on the level of intelligence one brings to bear on the game. For the vast majority of chessplayers of average intelligence, it is of minimal value. For the "talented tenth" (to rip off W.E.B. DuBois' old term), theorie is always already praxis.


When you put it that way, I got an immense amount from the discussion in terms of practical skills. For those who didn't benefit, not to worry...it was your low intelligence to blame.