IS CHESS A SPORT?????????

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Avatar of lfPatriotGames
ExploringWA wrote:
ExploringWA wrote:
ExploringWA wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

Yes. All sports are games. But not all games are sports. So to call the Olympics games is 100% correct. They could even include board games if they want, since they too are games. Think of it like a square. All squares are rectangles. But not all rectangles are squares. For a rectangle to be elevated to a square it has to meet a higher threshold. It has extra requirements. 

Some games are elevated to sports, if they have that physical skill element to them. But many games do not reach the level of sports. Things like tic tac toe, chess, or most card games. I can think of one card game that could be a sport though. Slapjack. Remember that game where you take turns putting down cards, and as soon as a jack appears the first person that slaps it keeps the pile. That's a game, card game even, where physical skill is likely to determine the winner. 

Games are defined at their core by the term, “play.”

Sports are defined at their core by the term, “competition.” 

These are my personal opinions, and therefore are not subject to your limited interpretation. 

Training for a game or sport is not performing the sport itself. Practice is not a sport. Practice can be anything that improves a particular skill, but it is not the sport. Tennis is a sport when played under competitive rules. Hitting a ball back an forth across the net can be practicing for tennis, but it also could be two kids who know nothing of tennis volleying the ball back and forth. They are not playing tennis, could technically be practicing for tennis, but at the core, they are just playing their own made up game. 

 

I agree with most that. But what if they are not practicing? What if they are playing, but simply not competing? They are playing for fun. I'm not aware of any requirement that says sports MUST require competition or scorekeeping. 

To me a requirement of competition gets pretty confusing pretty fast. Lets say there is a golf tournament. A player is competing. So he is participating in the sport, right? But then lets say he makes a 10 on a hole. So now he just gives up. He still plays, but is no longer even trying to do well. He just casually hit's the ball (playing by the rules of course). Sometimes he even intentionally plays to areas where he knows it will hurt his score, but will help him improve long term . He needs the practice. Now he is just practicing right? 

But then what happens if the competition gets disqualified and/or starts playing even worse? Now the practicing player thinks "wait, I might have a chance afterall". So now, he starts trying again. Competing. And to everyones surprise, he wins. Does this mean that he was not participating in the sport of golf the entire tournament? I think most people would agree that regardless of how well he played, or his motivation, or his attitude, it's STILL the sport of golf. 

Avatar of MovedtoLiches
lfPatriotGames wrote:
ExploringWA wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

Yes. All sports are games. But not all games are sports. So to call the Olympics games is 100% correct. They could even include board games if they want, since they too are games. Think of it like a square. All squares are rectangles. But not all rectangles are squares. For a rectangle to be elevated to a square it has to meet a higher threshold. It has extra requirements. 

Some games are elevated to sports, if they have that physical skill element to them. But many games do not reach the level of sports. Things like tic tac toe, chess, or most card games. I can think of one card game that could be a sport though. Slapjack. Remember that game where you take turns putting down cards, and as soon as a jack appears the first person that slaps it keeps the pile. That's a game, card game even, where physical skill is likely to determine the winner. 

Games are defined at their core by the term, “play.”

Sports are defined at their core by the term, “competition.” 

These are my personal opinions, and therefore are not subject to your limited interpretation. 

You are right, your opinion isn't subject to my interpretation. But if we left definition of words up to each person, then it would be pretty hard to communicate. Imagine court proceedings where each party gets to decide what words mean. 

Games ARE at their core defined as play. Which is why all sports are games. But sports are not defined at their core as competition. The core definition, literally definition, is physical skill. That's actually how the dictionary (and almost all of society) defines sports. Even the dictionary says sports "often" have a competitive nature. It doesn't say always. Non competitive tennis for example. Many people play for fun, not competition. 

Sports are usually competitive, I agree. But they don't have to be. But they do always have to have physical skill. So far nobody has come up with any exceptions. Nobody has named a sport that has no physical skill. I think the reason for this is because once that requirement is taken away, then it's no longer what is a sport, it's what ISN'T a sport. 

Ignoring and disagreeing with information, is not the same as stating the information has not been provided. There are many “sports” with little to no physical skill, but they are always passed off with other qualifiers. Chess has been repeatedly shown to require physical skill. Then the argument becomes, how much physical skill?  People sweat profusely during Chess matches, so sweat can’t be the criteria. How about movement?  No, Chess requires movement. Physical fitness?  Well, Chess requires all players to have some physical fitness, so there again it cannot be the criteria. Agility?  Nope. Dexterity?  Same problem. Your position requires arbitrary personal opinion and conjecture, where sport = competition requires no such devices. 

Avatar of TestPatzer

Keep in mind that the Olympic Committee also considers Correspondence Chess to be a sport . . . (which, to me, is really stretching the definition of "sport").

Avatar of lfPatriotGames

It also just occurred to me that all competitive sports are practice. Isn't that something coaches often stress? To play under competitive environments which prepares the player for future competition? A basketball game where one team is way ahead, the coach will put in the lesser players, specifically to compete, so that they can practice what it feels like in that competition. 

I'm not sure I would say just because they are practicing they are now no longer playing basketball. And the losing team, what happens if they no longer have any chance of winning, are they now playing a different sport simply because they have given up competing? Because if they are just practicing, it would not qualify as a loss. They could just say "you didn't win, we were just practicing". 

Avatar of MovedtoLiches

Solo Chess is a sport. 

Avatar of MovedtoLiches
lfPatriotGames wrote:

It also just occurred to me that all competitive sports are practice. Isn't that something coaches often stress? To play under competitive environments which prepares the player for future competition? A basketball game where one team is way ahead, the coach will put in the lesser players, specifically to compete, so that they can practice what it feels like in that competition. 

I'm not sure I would say just because they are practicing they are now no longer playing basketball. And the losing team, what happens if they no longer have any chance of winning, are they now playing a different sport simply because they have given up competing? Because if they are just practicing, it would not qualify as a loss. They could just say "you didn't win, we were just practicing". 

Here you are just plain twisted. Refer to the order of operations. 

Avatar of MovedtoLiches
lfPatriotGames wrote:

It also just occurred to me that all competitive sports are practice. Isn't that something coaches often stress? To play under competitive environments which prepares the player for future competition? A basketball game where one team is way ahead, the coach will put in the lesser players, specifically to compete, so that they can practice what it feels like in that competition. 

I'm not sure I would say just because they are practicing they are now no longer playing basketball. And the losing team, what happens if they no longer have any chance of winning, are they now playing a different sport simply because they have given up competing? Because if they are just practicing, it would not qualify as a loss. They could just say "you didn't win, we were just practicing". 

The term you will recognize is, “Practicing for the game,” or “practicing for the match.”  Nobody says, “practicing for the sport.”  Practice is not competition in a sport, it is practice for a sport. Some practice is designed to simulate competition. Again, the operative word?  Competition!

Avatar of lfPatriotGames

"Ignoring and disagreeing with information, is not the same as stating the information has not been provided. There are many “sports” with little to no physical skill, but they are always passed off with other qualifiers. Chess has been repeatedly shown to require physical skill. Then the argument becomes, how much physical skill?  People sweat profusely during Chess matches, so sweat can’t be the criteria. How about movement?  No, Chess requires movement. Physical fitness?  Well, Chess requires all players to have some physical fitness, so there again it cannot be the criteria. Agility?  Nope. Dexterity?  Same problem. Your position requires arbitrary personal opinion and conjecture, where sport = competition requires no such devices. "

But none of those are physical skill. Sweating, endurance, fitness, etc are not skill. They do not determine how the pieces are moved. Only the brain determines how the pieces move. The hand just carries out the order. Sports require the actual movement of the hand to determine the result of the game. The person who moves the piece with the most agility or precision for example. Where a judge might say not enough or too much pinky movement was involved. 

In sports it's the physical skill that determines how the game is played and who wins. There is no such skill in chess. Two chess players, one an obese slob the other a fit athlete compete. The obese slob can barely put the pieces on the right squares he's so clumsy. But he absolutely crushes the athlete. How is that possible? The athlete is not only in better shape, he trains more. He eats much better, has better endurance plus he also meditates for mental health. He also moves the pieces with much more grace and agility. His hand motions are exquisite, hitting the clock a work of art. Yet he loses horribly, getting checkmated in 12 moves. How is that possible when he had such a physical advantage?

Avatar of lfPatriotGames

What are the sports that have "little to no physical skill"?

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
ExploringWA wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

It also just occurred to me that all competitive sports are practice. Isn't that something coaches often stress? To play under competitive environments which prepares the player for future competition? A basketball game where one team is way ahead, the coach will put in the lesser players, specifically to compete, so that they can practice what it feels like in that competition. 

I'm not sure I would say just because they are practicing they are now no longer playing basketball. And the losing team, what happens if they no longer have any chance of winning, are they now playing a different sport simply because they have given up competing? Because if they are just practicing, it would not qualify as a loss. They could just say "you didn't win, we were just practicing". 

The term you will recognize is, “Practicing for the game,” or “practicing for the match.”  Nobody says, “practicing for the sport.”  Practice is not competition in a sport, it is practice for a sport. Some practice is designed to simulate competition. Again, the operative word?  Competition!

So what happens if they don't compete? Does it suddenly stop being a sport? I've never heard of such a requirement. I'm just going by the definition of the word. In the dictionary it says sports often include competition. Often isn't always. But the definition doesn't have that exception when it comes to physical skill. 

Avatar of Alfredo_Zena

I quote 1.000% Patriot. Physical skill is the real key difference, chess is not and wont' be ever considered a sport. It's a beautiful board game, but it's not a sport. I can not understand how many people there insist on such points like "hey, yes chees need physical skills indeed, since - in high competitive environment - you sweat, you need endurance, stamina, good health, healthy food, go to sleep early the night before the match". Ok ok I agree that all these points helps in performing well in chess, but they just help your mental condition. It is only the brain who determines the winner. Only that. Take the Patriot example of a fat man destroying an athlete at chess. 

It's really unfair and absurd keeping bringing these points to the discussion for supporting the "chess is sport" position. I though this was a forum for discussion, and discussion is based on facts and opinions. I can accept and respect opinions, but I can not accept facts alteration. Chess does not require any physical skill, you can even win the world cup with a broken leg. This is a fact, whoever denies it is out of the normal, fruitful and civil discussion, he just makes useless background noise.

 

Avatar of sparshg

Chess might be a eSport... Just throwing that out there....

Avatar of Emor_Clide

chess is a sport

Avatar of jonniquehenriques

no

Avatar of Emor_Clide

yes chess is a sport

Avatar of Emor_Clide

you can go search it it is

Avatar of TheHunter228

Ilike how they just say "no". No evidence or reasoning, just "no".

Avatar of MovedtoLiches
lfPatriotGames wrote:

"Ignoring and disagreeing with information, is not the same as stating the information has not been provided. There are many “sports” with little to no physical skill, but they are always passed off with other qualifiers. Chess has been repeatedly shown to require physical skill. Then the argument becomes, how much physical skill?  People sweat profusely during Chess matches, so sweat can’t be the criteria. How about movement?  No, Chess requires movement. Physical fitness?  Well, Chess requires all players to have some physical fitness, so there again it cannot be the criteria. Agility?  Nope. Dexterity?  Same problem. Your position requires arbitrary personal opinion and conjecture, where sport = competition requires no such devices. "

But none of those are physical skill. Sweating, endurance, fitness, etc are not skill. They do not determine how the pieces are moved. Only the brain determines how the pieces move. The hand just carries out the order. Sports require the actual movement of the hand to determine the result of the game. The person who moves the piece with the most agility or precision for example. Where a judge might say not enough or too much pinky movement was involved. 

In sports it's the physical skill that determines how the game is played and who wins. There is no such skill in chess. Two chess players, one an obese slob the other a fit athlete compete. The obese slob can barely put the pieces on the right squares he's so clumsy. But he absolutely crushes the athlete. How is that possible? The athlete is not only in better shape, he trains more. He eats much better, has better endurance plus he also meditates for mental health. He also moves the pieces with much more grace and agility. His hand motions are exquisite, hitting the clock a work of art. Yet he loses horribly, getting checkmated in 12 moves. How is that possible when he had such a physical advantage?

Your theory is testable. Please list the names of past and present GM’s, who were obese during their competing years.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames

I don't know of any GMs who are or were obese. But I do know that other people besides GMs play chess. Myself included. I'm neither obese, nor a GM. I'm just wondering, if physical fitness is some sort of skill, why would a clumsy, obese person be able to so easily beat a very fit, agile, strong, healthy athlete?

Also wondering what sports don't have any physical skill. 

Avatar of MovedtoLiches
lfPatriotGames wrote:

I don't know of any GMs who are or were obese. But I do know that other people besides GMs play chess. Myself included. I'm neither obese, nor a GM. I'm just wondering, if physical fitness is some sort of skill, why would a clumsy, obese person be able to so easily beat a very fit, agile, strong, healthy athlete?

Also wondering what sports don't have any physical skill. 

If Chess requires no physical skill, why are all Chess GM’s fit?