Is it Cheating?

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ClintBeastfood

How about ChessBase's LiveBook? Even though it's "just a database" I think it's a bit of a grey area.

Ziryab
ClintBeastfood wrote:

How about ChessBase's LiveBook? Even though it's "just a database" I think it's a bit of a grey area.

Not gray at all. I wouldn't use it.

Ziryab
richardbedford wrote:

I think you give the admins too much credit tbh, the reason most correspondance organisations dont actually legislate for it is the damaging and hurtful nature of being accused 

Look at my game history. You can see little banned icons next to most of the players that I have accused.

I've lost track of the number of times that I've been accused, but I remember the first time. I made an unsound sacrifice of a piece for two pawns in the opening, then won the endgame with my pawns against a knight. That was on ICC in 2000 in a blitz game.

richardbedford

Just out of interest Ziryab.. what does a banned icon look like? I have not seen one I dont think

richardbedford

I dont have a database of note, tbh I use my collection of books as a rule, I use the games largely to help my OTB chess, to gain experience in a wider range of positions

AutisticCath

Books give a run-down of basic opening principles, middle game tactics, end-game scenarios. They do not tell you what moves you should make in a given game. This is the difference between using a computer to give you the moves and using a book to help improve your tactics and development principles while you play.

Ziryab
richardbedford wrote:

Just out of interest Ziryab.. what does a banned icon look like? I have not seen one I dont think

The little icon to the right of my opponents merllin and csendes. It may be that you need to be a paying member to see other player's histories.

richardbedford

Well yes, however books do often show complete games and when the game mirrors a master game and you opponent deviates with a blunder... 

richardbedford

ah the little red dotted guy! :) 

Ziryab
richardbedford wrote:

Well yes, however books do often show complete games and when the game mirrors a master game and you opponent deviates with a blunder... 

I used the electronic edition, but Chess Informant 112 also exists in a print version. Almost this entire game, including my improvement, can be found therein. http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=103941300

richardbedford

you are lucky they didnt ban you :) 

stfudonny
Ziryab wrote:
ClintBeastfood wrote:

How about ChessBase's LiveBook? Even though it's "just a database" I think it's a bit of a grey area.

Not gray at all. I wouldn't use it.

I thought it was just a database of games played on playchess.com, am I not correct?  I see it over there in the right hand pane all the time but never pay much attention to it, all it gives are the percentages and average ELO, not much in the way of actual moves, unless I am mistaken.

richardbedford

Thing as I see it is as theory develops, as engine playing styles become more diverse I think it will become harder and harder to enforce. As my experience has illustrated you can be accused by admins and players alike without fair trial, the fact that you play better than expected seems to be justification enough.

gnikoor

I don't know is there a thing that tell a thing for that?  what is going on here?

cheating!?

richardbedford

As we get more advanced tech in the home, and engines become more human it gets very blurry! I myself work as a musician and I have a very high spec i7 machine with 32gb of ram and 4 tb of HDD... if I was to cheat I would possibly beat Carlsen! Like I say, my concern is the knock on effect of the average Joe being looked at with suspicion simply because they played a good game. For me now, if I play online/correspondance chess now I will certainly just play on my own memory as looking through books to help develop my understanding while playing in those positions has lead to me being banned on here and it makes me feel upset that i didnt cheat but I have been deemed to have done so with no return email or anything. Rant over, chess.com over.. I will find another outlet for my chess learning beyond my OTB games. Oddly enough, my last OTB game was pretty much no1 engine recommendation too... maybe I lost my mind and was wandering to the toilet to check some super computer! I have played thousands of games on here, enjoyed it, made friends, invited people etc. I have also reported abuse, being called a wide range of disgusting names and had aggressive posts towards me, reported them and nothing at all was done, I win an easy pawn vs a below average FM, play a good game and I get banned... what a shame, watch what you play! This site feeds off having titled players playing and if you are beating one, if they complain, the likelyhood is that you, like me will find yourself banned without a reason. Good luck with your games! Beakois out

JamieDelarosa
richardbedford wrote:
I think it is a HUGE can of worms, I have used books in my online games but it got me into quite a lot of trouble, please read below. 
Wanted to share a game in the Black Knights Tango, a fav opening of mine. I recently had a game with an FM in Correspondence where my opponent deviated with 14.e4 rather than the correct 14.Ne2, e4 I believe loses at least a pawn after dxc4, Nxc4, Qxd4. Sadly, after the game, which ended after dxc4 I was accused of cheating, I have since checked the game on an engine and many of the moves are in fact no1 engine choice, but since we were following a known master game and prep that had no doubt been investigated on an engine, how is this to be avoided in the future? Clearly professional chess players use engines for analysis and all books are helped by engines also, how can it be that we can use books and databases of strong players and when we follow a known if rare position we end up being accused of cheating? I think this illustrates how much the game has changed since I started playing some 20 years ago! It hurts to be called a cheat when I am not, but I think it is chess that suffers in the long run, improvement or good play by lesser mortals is always it seems to be looked upon with an eye of suspicion. Be good to hear your thoughts.

Using books, magazines, youtube, etc., is not cheating.

richardbedford

it is if they think it is, this is my point, masters use lots engine prep, books use engines so if your game follows book then be careful as it might look like youre using an engine. it can happen trust me, i havent used an engine and yet i got banned!!

Ziryab
stfudonny wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
ClintBeastfood wrote:

How about ChessBase's LiveBook? Even though it's "just a database" I think it's a bit of a grey area.

Not gray at all. I wouldn't use it.

I thought it was just a database of games played on playchess.com, am I not correct?  I see it over there in the right hand pane all the time but never pay much attention to it, all it gives are the percentages and average ELO, not much in the way of actual moves, unless I am mistaken.

Not according to the description at http://en.chessbase.com/post/live-book-thousands-of-novelties

Thus moves that do not come from a game, and are only the top suggestions of an engine, become part of this giant cloud openings book. 

richardbedford

Exactly Ziryab! this is what I am trying to highlight! Based on my experience i am considering writing an article about it tbh, the other side of the coin. I almost dropped my coffee when I saw I had been banned, it seems pretty unpleasant that it came literally as I got a winning position vs a titled player but if you looked at my games, yes I hadnt lost for a while, had a good % 50 wins vs 7 losses I believe vs a few draws but I was actually considerably worse in a number of those games, and since I played so few games in "online chess" many of my early games were vs quite inexperienced players, I have been playing for 20 years. But recently I had started to take it more seriously, partly due to work but partly as I started playing OTB again after a break. I think the cheaters are impossible to spot nowadays which is why I guess they are just banning people on the say so of some titled player.

jfly01

I feel so slow you guys, I don't even know how to use an engine (I mean, I know what to do with it, if I knew how to use it, or where to get one,) is this something I could buy at the mall?