psychic chess masters

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trysts
LoekBergman wrote:

Now does it become difficult for me, because I do not doubt it at all. I will try however.

Noone can claim to have an objective perspective on reality. Although practically it works all quite well, if we are very precise, then must we conclude that every perception is preceded by a will and a capacity. Descartes was living in the Netherlands (Amsterdam to be precise), when he wrote his Meditationes and part of his inspiration became from his amazement how Dutch people differed in cultural beliefs from what he was used to and that those Dutch people defended their 'strange' beliefs with the equal certainty he had about his own beliefs.

He was very impressed noone doubted about the certainty of their own beliefs. That was his starting point. That implied that he had to leave behind all certainties, hence also all things he knows how to perceive. He must leave that certainty behind as well. Once left behind using the method of doubt, can you never get it back again.

Yet, he remembered his starting point: the certainty of different, mutually exclusive beliefs. Which were true? Could he get at some point, now that he had found the ultimate starting point of reasoning: the doubt of the doubt is unmistakingly the same as the doubt itself. He knew something with certainty, beyond any doubt so to speak: the first thing being the doubt itself, the next thing the subject that is doubting, and the realisation that that subject called itself me. Slow by slow did he try to rebuild all his knowledge of the world based on doubt and try to prove what was certain and what can not proven to be certain.

And of course, it has not to be proven to you, only to me. :-)

Okay, maybe I don't understand you, but it sounds like you're saying that having your beliefs questioned could lead you to doubting the existence of an external world? That's so drastic that it could only be the result of insanity---or great drugsLaughing

LoekBergman

You understand it well, but draw the wrong conclusions. Smile

Have you ever been abroad? In another country not understanding that culture? That was his experience. His Meditationes is very funny to read. One of the last philosophical writers who wanted to entertain their readers.

He believed in practice in the external world of course, but could not prove it philosophically. One of his other conclusions was that people should not be overly certain about their own beliefs and better listen to what someone else had to say (and if I remember correctly) we all had to understand better that someone with a different belief would really belief that. And that we can not prove that people with other beliefs go all wrong.

Knightly_News
LoekBergman wrote:

You understand it well, but draw the wrong conclusions.

Have you ever been abroad? In another country not understanding that culture? That was his experience. His Meditationes is very funny to read. One of the last philosophical writers who wanted to entertain their readers.

He believed in practice in the external world of course, but could not prove it philosophically. One of his other conclusions was that people should not be overly certain about their own beliefs and better listen to what someone else had to say (and if I remember correctly) we all had to understand better that someone with a different belief would really belief that. And that we can not prove that people with other beliefs go all wrong.

I have never been a broad.  But I don't think guys and broads are so different  when it comes to our basic humanity.

Anyway, I agree with that guy - we shouldn't be too confident about our beliefs about the ultimate nature of things, or write-off the possibility of so many things. Right?

If you don't know where you came from, the nature or origin of your awareness, how it all got started (e.g. eternal presence or something, or something that arose out of nothing, both equally unfathomable), then how can you be so sure of anything, what's possible and what's not?

Ubik42
reflectivist wrote:
LoekBergman wrote:

You understand it well, but draw the wrong conclusions.

Have you ever been abroad? In another country not understanding that culture? That was his experience. His Meditationes is very funny to read. One of the last philosophical writers who wanted to entertain their readers.

He believed in practice in the external world of course, but could not prove it philosophically. One of his other conclusions was that people should not be overly certain about their own beliefs and better listen to what someone else had to say (and if I remember correctly) we all had to understand better that someone with a different belief would really belief that. And that we can not prove that people with other beliefs go all wrong.

I have never been a broad.  But I don't think guys and broads are so different  when it comes to our basic humanity.

Anyway, I agree with that guy - we shouldn't be too confident about our beliefs about the ultimate nature of things, or write-off the possibility of so many things. Right?

If you don't know where you came from, the nature or origin of your awareness, how it all got started (e.g. eternal presence or something, or something that arose out of nothing, both equally unfathomable), then how can you be so sure of anything, what's possible and what's not?

You just go by the evidence of stuff that you have. What else are you going to do?

Ubik42

I have one word for this thread: Spiderman. Only he can save us.

netzach

hmm. or Spiderthing. For this one.

u335394862

nah.

trysts
LoekBergman wrote:

You understand it well, but draw the wrong conclusions.

Have you ever been abroad? In another country not understanding that culture? That was his experience. His Meditationes is very funny to read. One of the last philosophical writers who wanted to entertain their readers.

He believed in practice in the external world of course, but could not prove it philosophically. One of his other conclusions was that people should not be overly certain about their own beliefs and better listen to what someone else had to say (and if I remember correctly) we all had to understand better that someone with a different belief would really belief that. And that we can not prove that people with other beliefs go all wrong.

Yes. I've been thinking about this discussion for a few hours. It's very interesting.

Ubik42

Here is my favorite argument along these lines, and one I find compelling:

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

TheGrobe

A variation on the brain in a jar exercise.

Ubik42
TheGrobe wrote:

A variation on the brain in a jar exercise.

No its very dissimilar to that.

First of all, its not a brain in a jar, it is "simulated" intelligences. No meat.

But more importantly is the argument line, which is not that we are simulations, but instead that if you believe that mankind one day can run computer simulations (with millions of simulated intelligences, perhaps more than there are people on earth), then you lose the special priveledge to say that you yourself are not one.

Put another way, if you knew that for every "real" intelligence there were 1,000 "simulated" ones, and offered to bet whether you were real or simulated, then smart money would be to bet you are a simulation.

But you have to plow through all the math to get the details.

royalbishop
netzach wrote:

hmm. or Spiderthing. For this one.

Dang i knew i should have the name Spidey! For times like this.


 

Knightly_News
royalbishop wrote:
netzach wrote:

hmm. or Spiderthing. For this one.

Dang i knew i should have the name Spidey! For times like this.


 

What about Spyd3r Tröll?

royalbishop
reflectivist wrote:
royalbishop wrote:
netzach wrote:

hmm. or Spiderthing. For this one.

Dang i knew i should have the name Spidey! For times like this.


 

What about Spyd3r Tröll?

Hehehehe.  Better call me Super Troll. As i am always top of the line.

I must be psychic as i knew your comment before you posted it. You have the wrong guy as i eat insults and love them. I Remember the day i was sick as crap and i went to a tournament as i knew this guy somewhat like you. He could not resist opening his mouth to talk garbage.

Well lets just say i got better real quick and had the best game i had in while and my pocket a lot heavier at the end of the night. Oh not only was he silent that night but days to come.

More troll comments please and multiple times!!!!

LoekBergman
Ubik42 wrote:

Here is my favorite argument along these lines, and one I find compelling:

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

I can imagine you like it. That person almost reasons like you, specifically the last sentence of the conclusion. Reading the article, I had one question in my mind: if some posthuman civilization would run such a simulation, would they let the simulated people know that they are part of a simulation or not? I would guess not. The humanoids in the simulation would be programmed to think that they are the real thing and they will not be able to find out they are not real themselves. That would give the simulation more realistic value, isn't it? Therefor can you furthermore conclude that if we are living in a simulation, that it is highly unlikely that we will know that we are living in a simulation. Being part of a simulation or of a reality has the same user experience being totally humanoid. Because we can not prove that we solely live in reality and not in a simulation of reality, can we never prove convincingly that this is the real world. All in all the same conclusion as Descartes, but where Descartes created the problem of the knowledgability of the outside world, creates this article the problem of the knowledgability of the real existense of the outside world. Even if you could prove that you could know that the world existed, can you then tell me in what world we are living in? A real one or a simulated one? (At which level of simulation to be more precise.)

Maybe is that why in a lot of cultures the idea of reincarnation exists and in all cultures the notion of a god. And that UFO's stay UFO's, because they might not be spaceships, but nanobots programming the simulation.

Knightly_News
royalbishop wrote:
reflectivist wrote:
royalbishop wrote:
netzach wrote:

hmm. or Spiderthing. For this one.

Dang i knew i should have the name Spidey! For times like this.


 

What about Spyd3r Tröll?

Hehehehe.  Better call me Super Troll. As i am always top of the line.

I must be psychic as i knew your comment before you posted it. You have the wrong guy as i eat insults and love them. I Remember the day i was sick as crap and i went to a tournament as i knew this guy somewhat like you. He could not resist opening his mouth to talk garbage.

Well lets just say i got better real quick and had the best game i had in while and my pocket a lot heavier at the end of the night. Oh not only was he silent that night but days to come.

More troll comments please and multiple times!!!!

lol.  I was just having fun. I thought it was a funny name. I wasn't trolling you. I thought you'd find it funny.  Your "big fish" stories are fascinating though. I could listen to you talk about your feats for hours.

royalbishop

Well!

Their is some truth to that comment. As doctors can try and try but they can not locate the soul. And nobody knows how we see when close our eyes then add in the fact we dream  of conditions that did not happen here. Plus the idea we can day dream visually.

It really is hard to determine the truth about the UFO as it is obvious governments have created enough false data to keep us in question for a life time. Fruit Loops every where would want to follow these aliens wherever they went and turn on the government. That movie/Tv show pretty much says it all about the governments fears on the topic.

My theory 1 and only 1 ship was captured. And with all these spies countries have tried to duplicate the technology. I suspect the real reason why it is not in Area 51 is either Donald Trump has it or somebody with a bigger ego has it. Not joking. Money get you government secrets.

Knightly_News

I consider what you said pausible, and a great TV series or movie plot, but it would have to distinguish itself from The X-Files somehow.  The thing about all the government conspiracies (and I understand you realize your theory is just a theory) is that we have so little real information that  it is all speculation.

What some people do is buy into a little story here, a little conjecture there.  After awhile, they forget how tenuous it was, and just remember he feeling of leaning toward believing it - wanted to, and then later, some of that data can be accepted as factual, maybe not all of it.  Then some of the fuzzy facts that makes it that far into the belief system can aggregate, and soon there is actually a world view, conscious or unconscious and a whole lot of other data that floats by with an affinity for that world view gets absorbed.   Gets really hard to seperate oneself from ones assumptions after awhile because they are so interesting and familiar and practiced.

We're just human beings. 

But as far as stories goes, yours is one of the better theories.  Who knows?

royalbishop

Well this is my point!

Why and What?

Why would they send a ship here and what do they hope to gain from it. Maybe we are stronger than them with nuclear weapons. So they sent a ship with all kinds of tech gadgets to allow it to be seen and captured for the purpose that we lack the wisdom to use it. In which case it would destroy us. Maybe they do not want this planet or us but did it to amuse themselves. Sure we can relate to that as many members here start arguments for that purpose.

Knightly_News
royalbishop wrote:

Well this is my point!

Why and What?

Why would they send a ship here and what do they hope to gain from it. Maybe we are stronger than them with nuclear weapons. So they sent a ship with all kinds of tech gadgets to allow it to be seen and captured for the purpose that we lack the wisdom to use it. In which case it would destroy us. Maybe they do not want this planet or us but did it to amuse themselves. Sure we can relate to that as many members here start arguments for that purpose.

Who knows?  Truth is often stranger than fiction.

Strange, but true.