Is Kramnik's "Berlin Wall" the end of 1.e4?

Sort:
Ocapi777

Ruy Lopez is not the only e4 opening

I play scotch too @ivandh

FrenchTutor
Ocapi777 wrote:

Ruy Lopez is not the only e4 opening

I play scotch too @ivandh

toiyabe

I also have 6 lands in play.

armstrong789

A very interesting system is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 which avoids the Petroff as well as the Ruy.

watcha

Yes.

Ziryab

Kasparov played the Berlin Wall himself and got beat by Judit Polgar. She also beat Sergei Karjakin from the White side of the Berlin more recently (two years ago).

The Berlin Wall is quite playable for both sides. The draw ratio is high not because the position is dead or stale, but because both sides must work very hard when one of them decides to play it out. In a tournament or match, sometimes players want to quit early and get ready for the next game.

 

It is well-suited to Carlsen who likes to torture players in seemingly even unbalanced positions, but even he will take a draw at move 35 from time to time.

armstrong789

In regards to 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Spassky has scored quite well as white with that system.I believe Ziryab is correct in his assessment of the Berlin Wall however.

Ziryab
richie_and_oprah wrote:

@ ziryab: i agree and also thinbk its a rather potent weapon to play for a win from the black side at lower levels (u/2200) where none of us have gm acumen in the endgames 

the bishop pair gets beastly on an open board with no queens
 

The Berlin is almost enough to convince me to give up the French, but then I have to prepare for a whole bunch of other White openings. When I play 1...e6, I have a lot of say. Still, I'll pop it out from time to time.

I've had fun with the Marshall, too. GMs have learned to neutralize the Marshall after Leko played it a bunch in the '00s, but class players still stumble against such naked aggression by Black.

armstrong789

One of the reasons the Russians score well with white when playing the Giuoco Pianissimo is because they know the plans and objectives of the middle game and end game better than most of their opponents.Opening advantages are no longer the primary goal in the Ruy, Giuoco Pianissimo, or Vienna Game.I believe however that the French Defence gives white nothing in the lines with 3.Nc3 Nf6 or 3.Nd2 c5.This is why Sveshnikovs 2 books on the Advance system 3.e5 are so valuable since he focuses on plans and objectives through all phases of the game.

Polar_Bear
richie_and_oprah wrote:
armstrong789 wrote:

In regards to 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Spassky has scored quite well as white with that system.I believe Ziryab is correct in his assessment of the Berlin Wall however.

back before engines im sure it was playable but now black knows they can play boldly and without serious risk so things have changed a bit

Spassky as champion annihilated the best chess computer on Earth in 17 moves. So Spassky should be regarded as greater authority in opening analysis than computers.

Laughing

Polar_Bear

Back in Tarrasch's era masters knew 4. 0-0 is inferior to 4. d3 due to black pair of bishops in endgame. Kasparov didn't know that.

armstrong789

I believe the Exchange var. of the Ruy Lopez has suffered faulty analysis for many years.With Deep Fritz 13 having Houdini 3 pre installed into it, the exchange var. may soon see a ressurection with excellent results for white.I believe however that Watsons excellent books on the French Defence may well cast a cloud over 1.e4 in serious tournaments.

GMVillads

When e6 is defended by a pawn a knight and a bishop you have to push e5-e6! And win!

GMVillads

Both players Can play for a win in the Berlin endgame. If White wants to avoid the endgame he Can play 4. Qe2 or 4.d3 or 5. Re1

BeatleFred
armstrong789 wrote:

A very interesting system is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 which avoids the Petroff as well as the Ruy.

I agree that the Vienna is an interesting opening and I'd like to see it played more often (actually Nakamura played it against Carlsen, its on YouTube). The Petroff doesnt necessarily have to be avoided- white can make it interesting with e4 e5 Nf3 Nf6 Bc4!, especially if black dares to take the e4 pawn.   The Vienna line can also be made sharper with f4 instead of g3, this is a very interesting game (was analyzed in the Sept 82 issue of 'Chess Life):

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1056093

armstrong789

The latest World Championship match between Anand and Carlsen shows the "Berlin Wall" as being a tough nut if not almost impossible one to crack.I believe as white Anand could have tried 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.Nc3 transposing into a Spanish 4 Knights Game.Now if Carlsen replies 4...Bb4 5.Bd3!? would be a reversed colored defence that Korchnoi has had considerable success with (as black).Using this kind of transpositional psychology will probably the only way to go in future serious tournaments .

MasterYobab

i dont know why there is a debate on this berlin wall thingy, on the contrary, berlin is easy to refute, first, the main feature of berlin is exchanging early because of solid pawn structure towards endgame, what the white player should do is avoid early exchanges and focus on development and increasing threats against black's passive play... Cool

blueslick
MasterYobab wrote:

i dont know why there is a debate on this berlin wall thingy, on the contrary, berlin is easy to refute, first, the main feature of berlin is exchanging early because of solid pawn structure towards endgame, what the white player should do is avoid early exchanges and focus on development and increasing threats against black's passive play... 

Thanks for refuting the berlin for us 1.e4 players, random 1500 on the internet.

TheMushroomDealer

C'mon man, it's not the end, it is a new beginning. Now on people start to play the scotch and the King's gambit ;)

armstrong789

The "Berlin Wall" will probably never be refuted.There are currently several volumes of theory after each of whites or blacks moves.

I believe whites best try may be to simply transpose into a Spanish 4 Knights game, which has not been analyzed as deeply as the Ruy Lopez and may still offer white chances for an initiative that lasts.