Is the the Scheveningen Sicilian bad/outdated now?

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pfren
IMBacon έγραψε:
sho16 wrote:

I heard that Kasparov used to play the scheveningen but after looking into it seems that the Keres attack is a good counter.

As a USCF A/B player.  I have been using a line of the Benko Gambit that is considered "busted" at the GM level.  Why do i use it?  Why is it effective?  Because im not a GM, and im not playing GM's.

 

The Benko is alive and well, at any level.

IMKeto
pfren wrote:
IMBacon έγραψε:
sho16 wrote:

I heard that Kasparov used to play the scheveningen but after looking into it seems that the Keres attack is a good counter.

As a USCF A/B player.  I have been using a line of the Benko Gambit that is considered "busted" at the GM level.  Why do i use it?  Why is it effective?  Because im not a GM, and im not playing GM's.

 

The Benko is alive and well, at any level.

Agreed.

IMKeto
fairytalebeast wrote:

hmm, can't benko gambit just be avoided? with regard to schevenningen people seem to regard keres attack with some kind of awe, almost like being an automatic win? I mean that attack has been around a long while now, surely somebody has come up with a refutation by now or at least a way to get a good even game against the thing?

The problem with these types of posts are the average everyday player suddenly thinking he can no longer play an opening/variation because a GM said its not good anymore. 

chessrook_80
Pretty sure this variation is fine for black 
 

 

zone_chess
sea_of_trees wrote:

I see. Skee van engine

Not even close.

Phonetically it's ˈsxeːvənɪŋə(n)

so it's a soft g sound after the s, more or less as in the german 'ich'.

and e: sounds like the vowel in 'sway'
and 'ing' as in 'Ingrid'.

so if you say sway-van-ingen and replace the w with the soft g that you have practiced, and shorten the 'a' in 'van' you're there.

zone_chess
RussBell wrote:
OldPatzerMike wrote:
sea_of_trees wrote:

I always wanted to learn how to pronounce it.

Is it shev-enin-gen? Like ninja at the end but instead ningen?

According to Soltis in "Pawn Structure Chess", "Almost no non-Dutch person can pronounce 'Scheveningen' correctly and for that reason it was used as a password by Resistance fighters in the Netherlands during World War II".

 

SKAY-ven-ing-en

with a 'hard" "g",......as in "ring" and "sing"....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQthvAh1Wew

 

 

 

Nope, soft 'g' as in the German 'ich' (I'm Dutch). Listen to the wikipedia pronounciation...
Phonetically it's ˈsxeːvənɪŋə(n).

chrisbarcacook

From personal experience having played the 5...a6 and 6...e6 Najdorf/Scheveningen setup, I find the opening not only playable but really enjoyable. Playing 5...a6 first, one does have to watch out for replies other than 6. Be3 or 6. Be2 such as 6.Bg5, 6. h3, etc...( I think this was also mentioned earlier by IM pfren). There is a good book by Lorin D'Costa (Move by Move series) that analyzes game in this setup. It is not popular right now at the top level, but does not mean it is not playable. I have had many online and OTB games against 6.Be3 and I get playable middlegames. Against 6.Be2 I have less experience but the few times I have played against it the middlegame position was cramped but playable.

2hour_chess

I'm curious about this topic because I use to play scheveningen at the club level over 10 years ago. I wonder if the defence is able to win? I notice that back then the dvds I bought for learning it never really translated to success for me. Wonder if I will re-pick it back up one day and do some solo preparation with it to make it shine.

tygxc

@42

"I wonder if the defence is able to win?" ++ The Keres attack 6 g4 is probably winning for white.
That is why in the English Attack of the Najdorf variation black plays 8...h5 to prevent 9 g4.
Here is an example:
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1360179

germanythebest12345

...

Elroch
tygxc wrote:

@42

"I wonder if the defence is able to win?" ++ The Keres attack 6 g4 is probably winning for white.
That is why in the English Attack of the Najdorf variation black plays 8...h5 to prevent 9 g4.
Here is an example:
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1360179

That's the English Attack, with the most popular e5 counter, via an unusual move order. The Scheveningen is a different variation, with an early d6 and e6 (and a6 being optional) It can meet an English attack with Be3, when it is the e6 counter to the English Attack (played well by Kasparov).

The Keres Attack is a quick g4 without f3 against the Scheveningen (taking advantage of e6 blocking the bishop on c8 from g4).

MaetsNori

Stockfish played the Keres attack against Leela two months ago, in the Top Chess Engine Championship - Season 26 Superfinal.

Stockfish was unable to break through, and Black held.

So, as of 2024, the Scheveningen is still able to hold, even against the strongest engine there is.