Is There An Unwritten Rule Against Using A Database

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Ziryab
Sred wrote:
 

Yes, help from a third person is cheating. We all agree about that. Do you think a database is a person or what's your point?

According to SCOTUS, it probably is.

fiddletim
Sred wrote:
fiddletim wrote:
Sred wrote:
fiddletim wrote:

if one goes to the game of a couple of other playes that is in progress, at the bottom of the onscreen board there is a "comment" choice with the stipulation that the players will not be able to read the comments until after the game.  an obvious reason for that, correct? i had a case of a game where my oppenent "messaged" another player,apparently had them look at "our" game, asking advice about whether he should or should not offer a draw.  i thought that was "chicken"...no offense to the bird.   if one brings another "player" or "electronic" third person into the mix in my mind, is overstepping the bounds of "fairplay". i do the "daily puzzle" daily. i like the "computer workout". i like youtubes of the likes of "anand's 5 minute game". i can continually educate myself and it may be the case that i change tactics mid-game.  fresh discoveries could happen on a court, ball diamond, cricketfield, soccerfield while a game is in progress.   as to the argument above about the phantom soccer goalie ? ill borrow from a wise chessmate who said, "you embarrass yourself"   much below the usual, "apples and organges" comparison. the crux for me is the "third person" input analogy.

Well, your opponent violated the written rules of this site. That's not what this thread is about.

ok chessmate, ill put it simple for you then without examples: any use of "third person", electronic or in the flesh would constitute a move of 2 or more players vs 1 player. if a player is aware enough to play chess, i would hope one would be able discern the difference and be able to figure it out themselves on both levels...the ethical and the particular move itself.

Yes, help from a third person is cheating. We all agree about that. Do you think a database is a person or what's your point?

 please tell me then, concerning the historic match between Kasparov vs Deep Blue would the database, "Deep Blue" be considered a person?  do think im the USA Supreme Court? what's your answer to your own question?

TheGrobe

The ludicrous "what is and is not a person" discussion aside, Deep Blue was not a database -- it utilized a database, yes, but it was an engine.

Only persons are persons (notwithstanding the debate around when this quality emerges).

Oh, and corporations. 

TheGrobe

I think the "person" test is a red-herring.  I believe what people are trying to get at is "outside assistance of any kind during the game" -- indeed, this is exactly what is prohibited in live chess.

Here is fundamentally the reason it is not prohibited in correspondence:

An active correspondence player here likely has numerous concurrent games on the go all at different stages.  Some in the opening, some in the middle-game and some in the endgame.

Given that they'd likely always have a game in the endgame should they be forever prohibited from studying endgame technique in case it could be applied to one of their games and considered outside assistance?

Same applies for openings, should they be prohibited from studying any openings that they are currently playing?  How big a hindrance would this be for games that can last months and when you're trying to build and strengthen an opening repertoire.  You can only play or study any given opening at a time -- never both?  It's ludicrous to expect this of people given the duration and concurrency of these games.

Jimmykay

TheGrobe...that was an outstanding explanation in post #285!

jlconn

As a point of honor, you shouldn't get other players to suggest moves in specific positions during your games, irrespective of whether the player is a lifeform, an automaton, or something in between. This applies for both OTB and correspondence chess. If you have any honor whatsoever, this will be obvious to you; if not, no amount of rules will protect you from your bad character.

Other than that matter of honor, in correspondence chess, there is no other prohibition or limitation, period, unless EXPLICITLY stated in the rules of the event/group in/with which you are playing.

I always go back to the same old question though, and no one has ever answered it in any reasonable way:

Who cares if your opponent is getting help? Let's just assume that your opponent plays the best move, on each and every single move. ... So what???

If your complaint is that your rating will go down, well it should, because it accurately reflects the fact that you lost. Over time, you'll win more games against others whom you can beat, and then your rating will find its proper level. A rating is not a direct measure of playing ability, it's a measure of relative results. Meanwhile, your opponent's rating is rising, and will be beyond your level of play so you'll not have to play him again, right?

If your complaint is that it seems unsporting, then you're really contradicting yourself. The complaint implies you only want to play opponents that you can defeat, and that's pretty unsporting. So in this case we have two players exhibiting poor sportsmanship.

If you simply like to think that you will have a chance of winning - or at least, not losing - well, you do. Just play as well as possible.

In other words, as far as I can tell, outside of the realm of high stakes professional chess tournaments, no one has any great cause for complaint that their opponent is getting help.

In my own case, please, get help against me. I don't care. I want to play the strongest opponents that will take the time to play me, and if you want to weasel out of playing a game against me and get someone or something else to do it for you, I've actually already won the real battle, so, whatever.

Unless you are playing for money or titles, or you have a fundamental misunderstanding of ratings and what they measure, I see no reason to obsess about cheating as much as this site and its membership does.

jlconn

What's the difference between a database and someone's memory? I was accused of cheating once in a tournament on this site because I spent all of 30 seconds checkmating my opponent after he horribly misplayed the opening; I need no help to checkmate you quickly when you step out of book in a sharp opening that I know well, and then you ignore basic chess principles while doing so.

If databases aren't allowed, but I have an idetic memory, am I restricted from using my brain during a game? Seriously, stop with the cheating concerns; play the game, and if you get beaten by someone, be thankful, and learn from your loss. Unless someone makes an illegal move to win, just be thankful when you get to play an opponent that outclasses you.

TheGrobe
jlconn wrote:

What's the difference between a database and someone's memory?

"Talent".

jlconn
owltuna wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out why absolutely nobody wants to address the issue of wood-pushing analysis and note-taking. Why do they think that issue is a non-starter? Clearly, note taking and wood pushing is against the rules of OTB/Live chess, but nobody complains about it in "Online."

What Chess.com calls "online" is really nothing more than correspondence chess over the Internet, with a nice interface.

If I understand your question correctly, the answer is that any amount of "wood-pushing analysis" and note taking is allowed in Chess.com's "online" chess, but not at all in "live".

Jimmykay
jlconn wrote:

If databases aren't allowed, but I have an idetic memory, am I restricted from using my brain during a game?

This was actually a point of contention in the early OTB computer vs human games. Computers DO access the databases for openings and humans are prohibited.

batgirl
jlconn wrote:

If...I have an idetic memory,

Do you mean idiotic or eidetic or a melding of the two?

TheGrobe

It was even an accusation levied against Deep Blue.  The claim was that the engine had human assistance.

SocialPanda
owltuna wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

It was even an accusation levied against Deep Blue.  The claim was that the engine had human assistance.

Yes. As I recall, the complaint from the Kasparov camp was that reprogramming was taking place between games to tweak gameplay in line with perceived strategies that Kaspy was employing. A very, very iffy proposition.

Not to mention that the engine has an  opening book that it is allowed to use for OTB... Sticky.

Kasparov said specifically that at least one of the moves of Deep Blue was human, that it looked like Karpov, that he was not saying that they had Karpov, but it could have been another GM.

He was saying that Deep Blue received the move during the game.

Jimmykay

Kasparov has never been considered a gracious loser! His infamous touch-rule violation with Judit Polgar and his draw with the 13-year old (I think he was 13) Magnus Carlsen spring to mind.

jlconn
batgirl wrote:

Do you mean idiotic or eidetic or a melding of the two?

Well played, I clearly meant eidetic.

Irontiger
Narkoman_Lutalica wrote:

None of my posts was deleted, therefore your accusations are unfounded.

I was never arrested for all the murders I committed, therefore they were legal.

 

In case this doesn't make obvious enough to you, what we are blaming you for is not having opinions but your lack of supporting arguments to convince the audience, and also somewhat poor ways of expressing them (but it's a minor point).

 

EDIT: I am taking no stance about whether your posts respected the ToS - I was just pointing out lousy reasoning, which can still yield correct conclusions.

Irontiger
Narkoman_Lutalica wrote:

In a way I'm fascinated by these people that can not stand me, and therefore constantly coming to my themes to say that somethin is wrong with my writings, that my teories has flaws, that I did not provided enough evidence for that etc.

Consider the possibility that you are reversing cause and consequence.

Jimmykay
Narkoman_Lutalica wrote:

In a way I'm fascinated by these people that can not stand me, and therefore constantly coming to my themes to say that somethin is wrong with my writings, that my teories has flaws, that I did not provided enough evidence for that etc.

I have no personal issue with you. I simply thought that your essay was poorly written and that the topic and your approach to it were sophomoric and mundane.  I have already been quite specific in my critique of both your writing skills and your approach to the topic. You took it as a personal attack, which it was not. It was feedback, which you asked for.

Also, they changed the ToS a few months ago, as was pointed out. You are now allowed to post such drivel in "off-topic". I conceded that point.

If you wrote better, more people might respond.

Sharon_231

One more thing if a player has a database of 'Chess engine games' is it fair that the player is using a database?

What if the player starts to use a personal database of random positions as well?

Is it fair at all? SurprisedUndecided

Jimmykay
Sharon_231 wrote:

One more thing if a player has a database of 'Chess engine games' is it fair that the player is using a database?

What if the player starts to use a personal database of random positions as well?

Is it fair at all?

Yes, it is within the rules.