Is There An Unwritten Rule Against Using A Database

Sort:
SocialPanda
htdavidht wrote:
Time4Tea wrote:

htdavidht: I think you overestimate the impact that using an opening reference has. It generally doesn't give you an advantage over your opponent (especially if they are also using one) - it just (hopefully) helps to ensure that you reach a balanced and playable middlegame. You still have to be able to play that middlegame and any resulting endgame in order to win.

 

Also, if your opponent goes out of book, you usually have to work out the refutation yourself - the database won't always tell you that.

If my oponent goes "out the book", most likely that would mean he blunders, unless my oponent is some Master and is creating a new line on the body of opening theory.

I have been faced with a reasonable novelty as early as move six.

But in most of my games novelties appear around moves 9-15. And they are not blunders (And I´m not speaking about the chess.com database that it´s almost empty).

But sure, I don´t play complex systems like the Najdorf or the Botvinnik Variation in the Semi-Slav.

Bobbarooski

These latest comments raise another interesting point.  Since I've never used a database nor an engine to select moves, I mistakenly lumped them together. I stand corrected, as apparently, an engine is not allowed because it finds moves for you.  Whereas a database merely shows moves that grandmasters played in similar positions, and it's up to the player to do his own research.  Do I have the distinction correct, or am I still missing the point?

Whatever the answer, I still like my strategy of play first, analyze after. But I'm only an annoying idealistic beginner.

Jimmykay
Bobbarooski wrote:

These latest comments raise another interesting point.  Since I've never used a database nor an engine to select moves, I mistakenly lumped them together. I stand corrected, as apparently, an engine is not allowed because it finds moves for you.  Whereas a database merely shows moves that grandmasters played in similar positions, and it's up to the player to do his own research.  Do I have the distinction correct, or am I still missing the point?

Whatever the answer, I still like my strategy of play first, analyze after. But I'm only an annoying idealistic beginner.

You are correct, Bob. That is the distinction.

My OTB opening play has improved tremendously by doing the research in correspondence.

Sred
htdavidht wrote:
Time4Tea wrote:

htdavidht: I think you overestimate the impact that using an opening reference has. It generally doesn't give you an advantage over your opponent (especially if they are also using one) - it just (hopefully) helps to ensure that you reach a balanced and playable middlegame. You still have to be able to play that middlegame and any resulting endgame in order to win.

 

Also, if your opponent goes out of book, you usually have to work out the refutation yourself - the database won't always tell you that.

If my oponent goes "out the book", most likely that would mean he blunders, unless my oponent is some Master and is creating a new line on the body of opening theory.

Wow, you totaly underestimate the richness of chess.

I've often played the a6 Modern here. How many samples do you think a database usually has after the first few moves if you are willing to leave the main lines?

Sred

I'm curious how many people think that using an analysis board in correspondence chess is also cheating, considering that this is a much greater advantage for the average player than database usage.

Maybe some even apply touch-moveSmile.

TheGrobe
owltuna wrote:
Jimmykay wrote:

You are correct, Bob. That is the distinction.

My OTB opening play has improved tremendously by doing the research in correspondence.

It's such a simple concept. E.g.: Go to school. Listen to the lecture. Do two things to earn a grade: open-book homework and closed-book tests. Do better homework in order to do better on the tests.

It's such a simple concept...

This anology is tops.

fiddletim

i like " grow your own", if you dont like the possibilities out there for whatever reason. im finding this discussion enlightening on a number of different levels. my own experience/understanding is limited except for of course, as i know/you all know, a "face to face" is an adrenlin charged experience relative to computer chess.  like and especially, a recent impromptu informal chess tourney..3 a. m. in the observation/lounge on the California Zephyr trying to make up for lost time on the eastern Colorado high plains. so my chess journey has taken me to this mighty fine site. first of all no "self deception"...i like to win.  however, in correspondence chess ive come to the attitude, i "win" by losing as well because its a "free" lesson, where ever the "moves" came from. so i dont fret to much when i hear how some people "insure" a win.   if a chessmate wants to fight "dirty" im still going to fight. what do each of us gain by it?   that's the answer for each of us to figure out isnt it?  fight "dirty" to put up some numbers.  where is that at? ready oneself for a "face to face"? ok then, ill have to except the limitations of the venue.

Bobbarooski

owltuna's analogy IS tops! Explained that way, I get it.  Now if I just had the patience for it...Undecided

Sred

Correspondence chess has been around for hundreds of years now. Some of the greatest players found it interesting and useful for good reasons.

But hey, lets change the rules because some guys think that it "feels like cheating".

bobbyDK
Narkoman_Lutalica skrev:

Any use of the programs, databases, analysis board, any kind of manipulation of the game during the game itself should not exist. Claim that many stated; ˝this is the rule in correspondence chess and you are a fool not using it˝, is not valid, simply because of the reason it implies that both sides should use this tool merely because they have option to do it. If one side chooses not to do it, automatically suffer the disadvantage. If rule does not exist neither side would have the option to choose whether to use it or not and possibility that someone is in advantage would be avoided. Generally, cheating is allowed because society is composed of individuals with extremely low criteria. But some people are just losers.

"one side chooses not to do it, automatically suffer the disadvantage."

it would be a disadvantage if the other person didn't have the change to do it. it is not my fault that other person does not choose to use the tools and resources he can draw on.

"hate the game - not the player."

or in other rules allow it so don't blame me for obeying to the rules.

Sred

I think that analysis boards should be allowed in OTB chess to eliminate these cheap tactical wins. Only the superior strategist should win!

Seriously? Of course not. But this argument is just as good as the erratic statements in favor of banning database use from correspondence chess.

bobbyDK
Narkoman_Lutalica skrev:
bobbyDK wrote:
Narkoman_Lutalica skrev:

Any use of the programs, databases, analysis board, any kind of manipulation of the game during the game itself should not exist. Claim that many stated; ˝this is the rule in correspondence chess and you are a fool not using it˝, is not valid, simply because of the reason it implies that both sides should use this tool merely because they have option to do it. If one side chooses not to do it, automatically suffer the disadvantage. If rule does not exist neither side would have the option to choose whether to use it or not and possibility that someone is in advantage would be avoided. Generally, cheating is allowed because society is composed of individuals with extremely low criteria. But some people are just losers.

"one side chooses not to do it, automatically suffer the disadvantage."

it would be a disadvantage if the other person didn't have the change to do it. it is not my fault that other person does not choose to use the tools and resources he can draw on.

"hate the game - not the player."

or in other rules allow it so don't blame me for obeying to the rules.

These are not rules that you must obey, but allowed options. The rule would be if both sides MUST use the analysis board. Difference is huge.

but I don't see the point if it is a allowed option I am free to use it.

and so is my opponent, so we are on equal terms. if he does not use his allowed available resources to win he is to blame.

if a goal keeper in soccer declines to use his hands but is allowed but the other goal keeper uses his hands to catch the ball, which side is better.

the first goal keeper thinks it is better to use his foot like all players in the field.

I think it is logic to use what you are allowed to use.

I have played otb where you are not allowed to use anything and that is fine too and defined in the rules as well.

rules define the game.

jurassicmark
Narkoman_Lutalica wrote:

Any use of the programs, databases, analysis board, any kind of manipulation of the game during the game itself should not exist. Claim that many stated; ˝this is the rule in correspondence chess and you are a fool not using it˝, is not valid, simply because of the reason it implies that both sides should use this tool merely because they have option to do it. If one side chooses not to do it, automatically suffer the disadvantage. If rule does not exist neither side would have the option to choose whether to use it or not and possibility that someone is in advantage would be avoided. Generally, cheating is allowed because society is composed of individuals with extremely low criteria. But some people are just losers.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  Nobody here is making a "claim" about the rules of online chess.  The rules are fairly clear.  Also, who is saying "you are a fool not using it?"  You're free to not use the resources, and you can still play a great game.  It's not like you're trying to play first base without a glove (something I don't recommend).

Scottrf

TBH only the top 1% of online players don't drop a piece every game. I do it with regularity.

Whether they stay in the game an extra 10 moves by using a database badly seems pretty irrelevant.

ppandachess
rrrttt wrote:

So I know it's completely legal to use a database in correspondence chess, but I don't know if you guys think it's fair, because I admitted I used a database to someone and he now refuses to play me. Thoughts?

Which was the game format? Online/classical/correspondence?

http://enjoychesslearning.wordpress.com/

Scottrf

@213 stop spamming.

batgirl

If this rule is unwritten, who unwrote it?

Sred
batgirl wrote:

If this rule is unwritten, who unwrote it?

It's unwritten in stone!

Sred
Narkoman_Lutalica wrote:
Sred wrote:

Correspondence chess has been around for hundreds of years now. Some of the greatest players found it interesting and useful for good reasons.

But hey, lets change the rules because some guys think that it "feels like cheating".

It is obvious that the rules will not change because someone does not like them. The whole concept of correspondence chess is overpriced because it diminishes the human element, that is the essence of the game itself.

*shrug*

If you don't like it, don't play it.

batgirl
Narkoman_Lutalica wrote:

I play only chess 960, hopefully some live option will be introduced.

That would be a real improvement.