Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

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Avatar of Ubik42
But home turf, and my son being on the team, just made that team 1st place trophy so sweet.

The school has all our team trophies….in a box. I told them for years get a glass cabinet and put them in the front!
Avatar of Ziryab
Ubik42 wrote:
Yes. Typically it is a school.

I got the school I taught at to host one tournament before Covid, and it was my son’s last year at the school. At this tourney we finally…. finally! knocked off the perennial number one school in the city by taking team first place by half a point.

Those guys were my personal Everest!

Anyway, definitely my proudest couch moment.

 

From 2000-2011, I was always encouraging the kids at the school where I was coaching (I started as a parent volunteer) to beat Saint George's. They finally did. Since 2011, I've been coaching at Saint George's.

Avatar of Ubik42
Hey Ziryab did your elementary students like bughouse as much as mine?

I was hesitant at first, but after playing a few games with them I thought it helped build creativity. I usually let them play a couple of times. Last class day was usually bughouse all day.
Avatar of Ziryab
Ubik42 wrote:
Hey Ziryab did your elementary students like bughouse as much as mine?

I was hesitant at first, but after playing a few games with them I thought it helped build creativity. I usually let them play a couple of times. Last class day was usually bughouse all day.

 

They are obsessed with it. I use it as a reward  when they are focused during the lesson, and then play some good normal chess. Then, I let them play a bughouse game in the last ten minutes or so. If I am needed to make four, I'll play.

Avatar of Optimissed
CooloutAC wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

I don't understand why "is chess a draw with best play by both sides" is debated!

who debates that?  Didn't Fischer himself literally say Chess is all memory and theory prep?  In your opinion someone forgetting his line means you got lucky, but thats just your opinion.  It isn't luck that my opinions are often correct. It might help you if you didn't misrepresent my opinion, since that doesn't just fool other people but it also fools yourself.

Because thats on the person and not the game.  Again,   I don't understand the need to even debate this.  I still feel people either need an excuse for losing or an excuse to not take chess seriously as a sport.   The absolute fact is that chess does not have luck built into the game. Your absolute fact isn't everybody's!

For example its not a game where you are rolling the dice or playing poker with a flop or dealt random cares,  or pulling a casino slot handle.   In those games mental or physical skill cannot  100%  predetermine the results of those actions out of human control.  I can't even believe I'm having this conversation and it absolutely speaks alterior motives.  You are literally coming up with an excuse not to respect the sport which encourages disrespect.  I actually find it apalling. Oh what a pity. What about all the others who are agreeing with me and with whom I'm agreeing?

 


1.  Lets say your opinions are correct.  Even though thats not the definition of an opinion.  But  Yes it would be luck according to your logic lmao.   You opinion was manifested by yourself and can be changed by your control and intentions.

2. But it is a fact.  Luck is not part of the game design.   I think this is what you are not understanding, which is hard to believe is sincere and not just an alterior motive.>>

"Ulterior motive" but just hold it there for a second. We're talking at cross purposes because I'm talking about luck in the game as it's actually played and you may be talking about something that exists in your mind, such as the ideal game of chess where it is imagined that luck doesn't exist, although t obviously does, as in all facets of life.

Its partly why we can consider Chess a sport but can't say the same thing about playing the roulette table at the casino or rolling dice in  another board game.   Why are you desperately trying to dispute this?  Its strange. 

Why are you saying I'm desperately doing anything? Is there an ulterior motive for saying that, such as that you may want to portray me as not having a firm and strong argument?

3.  I personally can't stand this community.  Its full of alt accounts and rating manipulators.   Its full of people who don't even consider chess a sport.  Oh dear. Or people who claim it to be one for political correctness, usually so called coaches,  but who don't actually treat the game as such. Well, it does have its moments but its up to us to make it better and to combat those who want to impose their opinions on others. Isn't it?

 

Avatar of Optimissed
CooloutAC wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:

  

3.  I personally can't stand this community.  Its full of alt accounts and rating manipulators.  

 

You can make this site better very easily. Leave.

Your cheating accusations are absurd in view of the quality of your play. https://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-analysis/how-beginners-play

 

You like everyone to leave the sport altogether,  Thats why you constantly make demeaning marks about low rated players and blitz.   You know,  the majority of worldwide chess community>   My theory is,  because people like you want to feel like you are of superior intelligence for playing a game most of society "can't".   But you are lying to yourself buddy.  lmao

 

Listen, if you can. I've taught over one thousand young players to play chess. I discourage blitz when they are beginners because it cultivates bad habits. Fast play creates sloppiness. I know, I played tens of thousands of games that are utterly horrid.

When I'm talking about absolute beginners with zero board vision playing too much blitz instead of learning fundamental contacts, I'm not addressing the "majority". A percentile below 10 is a minority, just as a percentile above 90 is.



I'm actually offering help, but you're in Plato's Cave watching shadows.

You should encourage them to treat classical as practice for blitz.  Totally discouraging the more fun and popular game mode,  sure doesn't help the sport.   


I agree with that to some extent, except that it isn't a sport. However, you have to give people a basis of skill before they can play blitz.

 

Avatar of Pan_troglodites

Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

Probably not.
But there are some days that the player's brain is most active than others.

He/she can be more focused, have fewer problems and worries and other external things that can influence the chess game.


My teatcher used to say:
To have luck in my tests is to have studied what was asked!


Avatar of nklristic
Pan_troglodites wrote:

Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

Probably not.
But there are some days that the player's brain is most active than others.

He/she can be more focused, have fewer problems and worries and other external things that can influence the chess game.


My teatcher used to say:
To have luck in my tests is to have studied what was asked!


I would say that there is. For instance, there was a game where I was better the entire time. I blundered in the endgame and saw it immediately. Luckily for me, the opponent didn't choose the right capture with enough time on the clock, so I won. I have to admit that I won luckily there and my mistake could've cost me dearly.

Just the other day, I faced Rubinstein French, my opponent blundered on move 7 and should've gotten his queen trapped. Luckily for him, he faced me - a foolish person (there are kids on the forum so I will not say what I should actually say grin.png) who castled automatically as I didn't expect a blunder. Again, luckily for me, he played automatically as well and gave me another chance to capture his queen.

Another example is one endgame where I was dead lost, had a pawn for a piece or I was a clear piece down. Opponent blundered a check with a fork on his rook with 30 minutes on the clock or so. Of course, I missed a lot of opportunities as well, and there were some opposite examples, but I would say that I won some of my games because I was lucky and because opponent didn't exploit my stupidity.

Avatar of Ziryab

I was quoted in a newspaper telling 1000 youth chess players to tell their opponents, “good luck” … “because there is no luck in chess.” Shortly after that, players started resigning to me more often when I had a slight edge. It made it a lot easier to go from 1800 USCF to 1900 than it was to get to 1800 from 1700. 

I think player perception/feelings of intimidation can manifest itself as luck.

Avatar of Ziryab

Then, there is the famous saying attributed to many people over the years, but most often to Seneca:

”Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”

We make our own luck.

Avatar of Optimissed

Wishing people "good luck" before the game can be an attempt to intimidate them, which can work if the opponent is impressionable. Therefore don't say it.

Avatar of x-3232926362

Big part of this discussion is just talking at cross purposes. People understand different things by "luck" and disagree with opinions that their opponents do not actually hold.

If you look at it from a purely game theoretical point of view, luck can come in two forms based on two categorizations of games. One is deterministic vs non-deterministic games. Non-deterministic games have randomness built in that makes the outcome of the game depend on something that is beyond the players control (like a roll of a dice in backgammon) and therefore we can say that they involve luck.

The other categorization is perfect vs imperfect information games. In imperfect information games the player does not possess all necessary information to make the best decision (like not knowing your opponents hand in poker), thus she has to make assumptions that may turn out to be wrong through no fault of her own, and we can talk about luck in this case too.

Chess is a deterministic, perfect information game. At each stage of the game the player has all the information to make the best decision and no outside random event can influence the outcome of that decision. So from the game theory point of view, there's no luck in chess whatsoever.

Now, if you want to make it fuzzy and expand the notion of luck in chess to include things like "I got lucky because my opponent got distracted by thinking about her favorite dinner her SO promised to cook today and blundered her rook", then yes sure, chess involves luck. But so does everything we do, and there's no point arguing about it anymore.

Avatar of Optimissed
ExploringWA wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

Then, there is the famous saying attributed to many people over the years, but most often to Seneca:

”Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”

We make our own luck.

The harder a person trains, the luckier they get. 

I think that has been said in ten different ways recently. Not sure it's literally true because you aren't really talking about luck.

Avatar of Ziryab
Optimissed wrote:

Wishing people "good luck" before the game can be an attempt to intimidate them. which can work if the opponent is impressionable. Therefore don't say it.

 

The tone of your voice can convey that intimidation very well. That’s why I try to stress the phrase ironically. Good luck. Have fun. Play well, but not well enough to beat me.

 

Reminds me of a couple “good game” threads on this site. Remember those?

Some people say “gg” as a clue they think you should resign.

Avatar of Optimissed
AntiMustard wrote:

Big part of this discussion is just talking at cross purposes. People understand different things by "luck" and disagree with opinions that their opponents do not actually hold.

If you look at it from a purely game theoretical point of view, luck can come in two forms based on two categorization of games. One is deterministic vs non-deterministic games. Non-deterministic games have randomness built in that makes the outcome of the game depend on something that is beyond the players control (like a roll of a dice in backgammon) and therefore we can say that they involve luck.

The other categorization is perfect vs imperfect information games. In imperfect information games the player does not possess all necessary information to make the best decision (like not knowing your opponents hand in poker), thus she has to make assumptions that may turn to be wrong through no fault of her, own and we can talk about luck in this case too.

 

Now, if you want to make it fuzzy and expand the notion of luck in chess to include things like "I got lucky because my opponent got distracted by thinking about his favorite dinner her SO promised to cook today and blundered her rook", then yes sure, chess involves luck. But so does everything we do, and there's no point arguing about it anymore.

That was a decent attempt at a good argument but it's incorrect, if you don't mind my saying so. The reason is this:
<<Chess is a deterministic, perfect information game. At each stage of the game the player has all the information to make the best decision and no outside random event can influence the outcome of that decision. So from the game theory point of view, there's no luck in chess whatsoever.>>

That's incorrect because chess is a difficult game and if everybody always made the best decision regarding moves, it would always be a draw. There are many random elements which affect whether we make the best moves available.

Avatar of Optimissed

So the more skilful a player is, then the percentage of good moves made will tend to become higher. It's more difficult to predict the accuracy of individual moves.

Avatar of Optimissed

It's therefore reasonable to be sceptical about an assertion that chess is a perfect information scenario.

Avatar of x-3232926362
Optimissed wrote:

That's incorrect because chess is a difficult game and if everybody always made the best decision regarding moves, it would always be a draw. There are many random elements which affect whether we make the best moves available.

I do not want to flame you or anything, but you are just unfamiliar with game theory. Chess is a perfect example (no pun intended) of a perfect information game. Having perfect information does not imply the ability of the player to turn that information into the best decision. She may lack skill to do it, what is important is that no information is hidden. Also there's absolutely no randomness involved.

Avatar of Optimissed

Here's a case in point .... a recently finished game 0f Chess960 3 day rated. My opponent was a lot more skillful than I thought he would be and I didn't press hard enough in the opening. I probably had a forced win there. But in the ending, I had a choice of bishop moves and I think I drew because I played the wrong one. It's a difficult ending which is far beyond the scope of the analysis tool to play, so no help there.

 

Avatar of Ziryab

Here’s a game of luck:

Play guess the move while watching a couple of 500ish rated players play.

I got 0/12 in one effort. I’m usually lucky to score 50%.