Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

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Tempetown
NiniX2009 wrote:
Yes because you can get lucky for example if your oppnent is playing a perfect game and he accidentally blunders

An opponent's blunder is NOT luck. It is a lack of skill. Is this really so hard to understand?

HonSec
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

This seems only to illustrate a skill differential and not that luck exists, however. It's a skill differential, which genuinely causes wins and losses.

But the differential here is not necessarily between me and my opponent, but between my objective strength and the strength of the move I played. I chose a very basic example to illustrate the concept but perhaps made it too basic. Alternatively, consider a complex middlegame - perhaps a player identifies three candidate moves. A very strong player calculates all three, realises why two of them are inferior, and plays the third. Skill. A weaker player cannot calculate all the way, but perhaps gets close enough to get a feel that that third is stronger, and plays that. Still skill, although partly subconscious. But a third player, slightly weaker still, genuinely has no idea. All the moves seem equally good. He picks one. Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong. Clearly, there is a skill differential between him and the first two players. But whether the skill difference manifests in that moment is down to luck, or chance if you prefer - did he happen to pick the strongest move, even though they all seemed equal to him?

Tempetown
HonSec wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

This seems only to illustrate a skill differential and not that luck exists, however. It's a skill differential, which genuinely causes wins and losses.

But the differential here is not necessarily between me and my opponent, but between my objective strength and the strength of the move I played. I chose a very basic example to illustrate the concept but perhaps made it too basic. Alternatively, consider a complex middlegame - perhaps a player identifies three candidate moves. A very strong player calculates all three, realises why two of them are inferior, and plays the third. Skill. A weaker player cannot calculate all the way, but perhaps gets close enough to get a feel that that third is stronger, and plays that. Still skill, although partly subconscious. But a third player, slightly weaker still, genuinely has no idea. All the moves seem equally good. He picks one. Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong. Clearly, there is a skill differential between him and the first two players. But whether the skill difference manifests in that moment is down to luck, or chance if you prefer - did he happen to pick the strongest move, even though they all seemed equal to him?

You are correct. The relative skill level between two players does not guarantee that the more skillful player increases his theoretical gains with each and every move. It has a cumulative effect over multiple moves. Even relatively weak players often have a line of book moves memorized. BUT, here is a constant--if you play sufficienty more skillfully (in aggrgate) than your opponent, you will win. If you do not play sufficiently more skillfully you may draw. If he plays sufficiently more capably than you, you will lose. No luck to be found anywhere.

Tempetown
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

It certainly isnt luck. It IS skill--in this case the lack thereof. Your example actually fits perfectly with the actual answer to this question. There is no luck in chess (other than the black/white determination)--only varying levels of skill.

All you keep doing, I'm afraid, is repeating the same claim without an argument. You can do that 1000 times and it is no more persuasive than doing it once. You even claimed at one point that at some stage you'd made a proper argument to support your unsupportable supposition.

OK. Let me use even smaller words in the hopes that even you might understand. Poker is a game of luck and skill. Backgammon is a game of luck and skill. Craps is a game of luck and skill. Monopoly is a game of luck and skill. Why is this? all of these games have external factors over and above skill--be it the luck of the draw at cards, the luck of the roll at dice, etc. Chess does not have such an external factor (other than my oft cited black/white firt move). Once you get past that first move there is no luck involved in chess. Yes, maybe my opponent has a heart attack and dies leaving me the winner. That would be lucky for me, but such an event is external to the game of chess. For the umpteenth time, don't believe me? Google it. Either every search engine or AI platform that I try is wrong about this OR you are wrong about this. Gee, I wonder which it is?

Trying to pretend tht you are more intelligent than me can only result in your proving the opposite.

Do you understand that??

What you are saying here is that you can't construct an argument and so you believe what you find on the web. But if you believe what you find on the web, how are you going to manage to understand it?

I think its pretty clear that no pretending is necessary. do you understand that? and the fact that you cant understand any arguments i make is on you, sweetpea!

Tempetown
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

This seems only to illustrate a skill differential and not that luck exists, however. It's a skill differential, which genuinely causes wins and losses.

But the differential here is not necessarily between me and my opponent, but between my objective strength and the strength of the move I played. I chose a very basic example to illustrate the concept but perhaps made it too basic. Alternatively, consider a complex middlegame - perhaps a player identifies three candidate moves. A very strong player calculates all three, realises why two of them are inferior, and plays the third. Skill. A weaker player cannot calculate all the way, but perhaps gets close enough to get a feel that that third is stronger, and plays that. Still skill, although partly subconscious. But a third player, slightly weaker still, genuinely has no idea. All the moves seem equally good. He picks one. Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong. Clearly, there is a skill differential between him and the first two players. But whether the skill difference manifests in that moment is down to luck, or chance if you prefer - did he happen to pick the strongest move, even though they all seemed equal to him?

Firstly, let's accept that no-one has managed to construct an argument that there's no luck in chess. Therefore you don't have to resort to dodgy arguments to hold your position. Luck applies to all areas of human life and those that don't understand that don't understand a basic fact of life. It's probably wishful thinking in many cases. But don't resort to making weak arguments to uphold the natural proposition that there are times when luck affects the playing and result of ches games. It's nothing more than a natural assumption which cannot be counter-denonstrated. Compare your arguments with the attempts of Templetown and don't make weak arguments which semi-reasonable people may object to.

Once again, you make a faulty premise. Try rereading my #5529 post because it is by for the most simply stated. Read it multiple times if you struggle with reading comprehension. Then google this question: "Is there any luck involved in chess?" Case closed. You lose!

Tempetown
Optimissed wrote:

The weaker players are, the more and more ridiculous are arguments that no luck exists in chess. It would seem that when two players are equally matched but appallingly bad, the result can be down to nothing other than to luck.

Nope. Either one will manage to play more skillfully on a relative basis or they will draw. Same with two masrers playing each other. No luck involved.

BigPig19

Chess is a game of skill, but it could luck if you are just guessing where to go. Yet, I am still on the "Chess is a game of skill, not luck" side.

Tempetown
BigPig19 wrote:

Chess is a game of skill, but it could luck if you are just guessing where to go. I am still on the "Chess is a game of skill, not luck" side.

If you dont know where to go and your opponent does, that is a lack of relative skill on your part, no luck. Dont believe me? Google it.

HonSec
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

This seems only to illustrate a skill differential and not that luck exists, however. It's a skill differential, which genuinely causes wins and losses.

But the differential here is not necessarily between me and my opponent, but between my objective strength and the strength of the move I played. I chose a very basic example to illustrate the concept but perhaps made it too basic. Alternatively, consider a complex middlegame - perhaps a player identifies three candidate moves. A very strong player calculates all three, realises why two of them are inferior, and plays the third. Skill. A weaker player cannot calculate all the way, but perhaps gets close enough to get a feel that that third is stronger, and plays that. Still skill, although partly subconscious. But a third player, slightly weaker still, genuinely has no idea. All the moves seem equally good. He picks one. Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong. Clearly, there is a skill differential between him and the first two players. But whether the skill difference manifests in that moment is down to luck, or chance if you prefer - did he happen to pick the strongest move, even though they all seemed equal to him?

Firstly, let's accept that no-one has managed to construct an argument that there's no luck in chess. Therefore you don't have to resort to dodgy arguments to hold your position. Luck applies to all areas of human life and those that don't understand that don't understand a basic fact of life. It's probably wishful thinking in many cases. But don't resort to making weak arguments to uphold the natural proposition that there are times when luck affects the playing and result of chess games. It's nothing more than a natural assumption which cannot be counter-demonstrated. Compare your arguments with the attempts of Templetown and don't make weak arguments which semi-reasonable people may object to.

Oh buddy, if you feel the need to police people making arguments you consider weak, even when you fundamentally agree with them, the internet might not be the best place for you.

Tempetown
HonSec wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

This seems only to illustrate a skill differential and not that luck exists, however. It's a skill differential, which genuinely causes wins and losses.

But the differential here is not necessarily between me and my opponent, but between my objective strength and the strength of the move I played. I chose a very basic example to illustrate the concept but perhaps made it too basic. Alternatively, consider a complex middlegame - perhaps a player identifies three candidate moves. A very strong player calculates all three, realises why two of them are inferior, and plays the third. Skill. A weaker player cannot calculate all the way, but perhaps gets close enough to get a feel that that third is stronger, and plays that. Still skill, although partly subconscious. But a third player, slightly weaker still, genuinely has no idea. All the moves seem equally good. He picks one. Maybe it is right, maybe it is wrong. Clearly, there is a skill differential between him and the first two players. But whether the skill difference manifests in that moment is down to luck, or chance if you prefer - did he happen to pick the strongest move, even though they all seemed equal to him?

Firstly, let's accept that no-one has managed to construct an argument that there's no luck in chess. Therefore you don't have to resort to dodgy arguments to hold your position. Luck applies to all areas of human life and those that don't understand that don't understand a basic fact of life. It's probably wishful thinking in many cases. But don't resort to making weak arguments to uphold the natural proposition that there are times when luck affects the playing and result of chess games. It's nothing more than a natural assumption which cannot be counter-demonstrated. Compare your arguments with the attempts of Templetown and don't make weak arguments which semi-reasonable people may object to.

Oh buddy, if you feel the need to police people making arguments you consider weak, even when you fundamentally agree with them, the internet might not be the best place for you.

Thanks for the warning. I'll take my chances.

Tempetown
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

It certainly isnt luck. It IS skill--in this case the lack thereof. Your example actually fits perfectly with the actual answer to this question. There is no luck in chess (other than the black/white determination)--only varying levels of skill.

All you keep doing, I'm afraid, is repeating the same claim without an argument. You can do that 1000 times and it is no more persuasive than doing it once. You even claimed at one point that at some stage you'd made a proper argument to support your unsupportable supposition.

OK. Let me use even smaller words in the hopes that even you might understand. Poker is a game of luck and skill. Backgammon is a game of luck and skill. Craps is a game of luck and skill. Monopoly is a game of luck and skill. Why is this? all of these games have external factors over and above skill--be it the luck of the draw at cards, the luck of the roll at dice, etc. Chess does not have such an external factor (other than my oft cited black/white firt move). Once you get past that first move there is no luck involved in chess. Yes, maybe my opponent has a heart attack and dies leaving me the winner. That would be lucky for me, but such an event is external to the game of chess. For the umpteenth time, don't believe me? Google it. Either every search engine or AI platform that I try is wrong about this OR you are wrong about this. Gee, I wonder which it is?

Trying to pretend tht you are more intelligent than me can only result in your proving the opposite.

Do you understand that??

What you are saying here is that you can't construct an argument and so you believe what you find on the web. But if you believe what you find on the web, how are you going to manage to understand it?

I think its pretty clear that no pretending is necessary. do you understand that? and the fact that you cant understand any arguments i make is on you, sweetpea!

That's the second time you called me that.

Let's say that any intelligent person (more intelligent than you) reading what you wrote there is going to form the natural opinion that not only are you completely thick, but you can't accept reality either.

Anyhow, goodnight, Tempetown. It's bedtime here.

The second time a called you what? Sweetpea?

BigPig19
Tempetown wrote: BigPig19 wrote:

Chess is a game of skill, but it could luck if you are just guessing where to go. I am still on the "Chess is a game of skill, not luck" side.

If you dont know where to go and your opponent does, that is a lack of relative skill on your part, no luck. Dont believe me? Google it.

That is true

Tempetown
Optimissed wrote:

To put it more clearly, you are arguing that skill exists in the playing of chess. None of your arguments cause the proposition that there's no luck at all.

Wrong again. Try reading my post #5529 yet again. Maybe you will get it with enough repatition.

Tempetown

*repetition

Tempetown
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

The weaker players are, the more and more ridiculous are arguments that no luck exists in chess. It would seem that when two players are equally matched but appallingly bad, the result can be down to nothing other than to luck.

Nope. Either one will manage to play more skillfully on a relative basis or they will draw. Same with two masrers playing each other. No luck involved.

Your problem is that you don't know what "luck" is. Neither do you understand what "random" means.

It seems that just because chess is a game of skill, luck is prevented from entering into it by MYSTERIOUS FORCES.

OK, let's pretend that you can run twice as fast as me but I beat you in a five yard race because when the starting gun went off, you were busy reflecting on your great genius, which is (hypothetically of course) far, far greater than that of the next most intelligent person in this forum!

Actually I know what they both mean. How and why would you surmise that I dont?

Tempetown
Tempetown wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

The weaker players are, the more and more ridiculous are arguments that no luck exists in chess. It would seem that when two players are equally matched but appallingly bad, the result can be down to nothing other than to luck.

Nope. Either one will manage to play more skillfully on a relative basis or they will draw. Same with two masrers playing each other. No luck involved.

Your problem is that you don't know what "luck" is. Neither do you understand what "random" means.

It seems that just because chess is a game of skill, luck is prevented from entering into it by MYSTERIOUS FORCES.

OK, let's pretend that you can run twice as fast as me but I beat you in a five yard race because when the starting gun went off, you were busy reflecting on your great genius, which is (hypothetically of course) far, far greater than that of the next most intelligent person in this forum!

Actually I know what they both mean. How and why would you surmise that I dont?

And there are no mysterious forces at work here. There simply are no external factors to skill. No cards. No dice. No spinners.

You seem to be nearly the perfect embodiment of the Dunnin-Kruger effect!

Tempetown
ibrust777 wrote:

For 3 pages I've been waiting for this dunce to do something more than make a claim, then loudly insist on it being true repeatedly, and then insist the argument he's responding to is false repeatedly... but apparently I'm expecting way too much.

I suggest you read this, it might help you not to embarrass yourself in the future - Deductive reasoning - Wikipedia

Yeah I was auto-banned for using a naughty word in a context that made it perfectly benign, but that's what you get when the site is too cheap to pay their mods.

Oh no, another moron states his case! (Normally I dont insult people with my very first post, but you chose to start it.) And here is what you need to read--for like the 10th time-- plug "Is there luck in chess into google. or some other search engine. BAM! You lose. Nice try though sugarballs.

Tempetown
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
HonSec wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
KestrelPi wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

@KestrelPi

Luck is a subjective view of probabilistic events. Not deterministic or conscious efforts, such as skill in chess. There is no objective chance or luck in chess.

Now we're getting somewhere! So what you're saying is that in order for luck to be involved the events have to be in some way... probabilistic. Can we define that a little more so we can see if that's robust?
I promise, I'm not doing this to be annoying: it's my suspicion the reason people can't agree on this is that we're all working with different ideas of what luck is. So I've proposed one, to see if it holds up. Maybe your one holds up better

Probabilistic event involves a random mechanic that is out of the players control. They typically use dice for this purpose in games. Two players making conscious decisions with superior ability and move prevailing is not an example of such, it is the opposite of random and therefore cannot provide an instance of luck.

Superficially it does seem like there is no luck in chess, as there is no random mechanic in the game itself. But - even if we discount external events over which a player has no control - I think you could argue that chess does contain luck because no human player has a perfect understanding of the moves they make.

To give a very basic example: if I move a pawn, intending to attack my opponent's knight, and inadvertently block a checkmate threat from a bishop-queen battery that I haven't seen, what is that, if not luck? It certainly isn't skill.

It certainly isnt luck. It IS skill--in this case the lack thereof. Your example actually fits perfectly with the actual answer to this question. There is no luck in chess (other than the black/white determination)--only varying levels of skill.

All you keep doing, I'm afraid, is repeating the same claim without an argument. You can do that 1000 times and it is no more persuasive than doing it once. You even claimed at one point that at some stage you'd made a proper argument to support your unsupportable supposition.

OK. Let me use even smaller words in the hopes that even you might understand. Poker is a game of luck and skill. Backgammon is a game of luck and skill. Craps is a game of luck and skill. Monopoly is a game of luck and skill. Why is this? all of these games have external factors over and above skill--be it the luck of the draw at cards, the luck of the roll at dice, etc. Chess does not have such an external factor (other than my oft cited black/white firt move). Once you get past that first move there is no luck involved in chess. Yes, maybe my opponent has a heart attack and dies leaving me the winner. That would be lucky for me, but such an event is external to the game of chess. For the umpteenth time, don't believe me? Google it. Either every search engine or AI platform that I try is wrong about this OR you are wrong about this. Gee, I wonder which it is?

That's such a bad argument that I ignored it. Octopus brought that argument.

You're basically defining chess as a game of skill only and skill as a process which contains no luck.
Sorry but you don't get to define your proposition as being correct.

I can define a tortoise as a hare on Tuesdays and that therefore on Tuesdays, the tortoise would always win. However, I'd be very lucky if anyone believed me.

You need to learn logic and learn what arguments consist of. Learn about truth and validity of premises. I have a degree in philosophy, which touches on that. If I couldn't make valid arguments I wouldn't have got the degree. I'm also quite qualified in engineering. Do you think I can define a bridge into being strong enough to carry a tank? Or does it have to really be strong enough?

Seriously? Do you ever tire of being wrong? I dont define it. I just say what it is. All the AI platforms and search engines i have looked at agree. Face it. You're wrong--or else AI is wrong...

Tempetown
ibrust777 wrote:

For 3 pages I've been waiting for this dunce to do something more than make a claim, then loudly insist on it being true repeatedly, and then insist the argument he's responding to is false repeatedly... but apparently I'm expecting way too much. But I could not take it anymore, I had to login and point out what a joke this "argument" is. 
Surely there's someone better to represent the anti-luck case than this person. No...? Octo?

I suggest you ask AI what 'deductive reasoning' means, it might help you not to embarrass yourself in the future.

Yeah I was auto-banned for using a naughty word in a context that made it perfectly benign, but that's what you get when the site is too cheap to pay their mods.

BTW, I have no idea what you are talking about re bans and foul language. You must have me confused with someone else.

Tempetown
ibrust777 wrote:

Only an ignoramus would reduce this conversation to an appeal to chatGPT of all things. But it's you implicitly admitting you're incapable of reasoning for yourself, which everyone here could already tell... I use google AI on a daily basis at work, it gets things wrong constantly... since it does not arrive at its conclusions primarily through reason, it just a reformats / regurgitates common statements found across the web. Kind of like what you're doing.

yeah. cause YOU are smarter than any AI platform! Am I talking with another philosophy major?