Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

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playerafar
Optimissed wrote:
playerafar wrote:

Octo has no proof of his claims. No evidence.
His posts are refuted over and over again.
Flat earthers don't have proof of their claims either - nor are they receptive to evidence refuting their claims.
Octo knows that winning a lost game because the opponent's internet connection fails is luck.
---------------------------
Regarding a position by much better (and more sincere) posters than Octo that there is 'no luck' in chess - some of those persons will or do or would recognize a difference between 'rejecting' luck in chess and 'denying' luck in chess.
Rejection versus denial.
Rejection of something doesn't have to include denial of its existence.
Rejection implies that something isn't wanted - not a pretense.
Denialism of things that are real and commonly recognized, such as not having total control of an outcome, such denialism are pretenses.
----------------
There is another situation and that is defining subjective things as perceptions.
But that has grey areas.
Is purpose always subjective? It only exists subjectively?
I would say no.
Anything with DNA in it that is living and functioning to survive has purpose.
That's an objective fact.
So events not under the control of that living thing that happen to determine the good or bad fortune of that living thing are luck.
In other words a tree can be lucky. It doesn't need perception of luck to be lucky.
Whereas a rock cannot be lucky. It has no DNA. It has no operation to survive.
People know these things.
Realities are consequences of existence not somebody's logic or illogic.
---------------------

When I read Octo's posts, whatever I may think of the arguments they may contain, I see them as the reasoned output of someone who takes some care in putting his thoughts across. He reads like a respectable person and we may be interested in reading what he has to say, since it's transmitted in a respectful manner.

Reading your posts, however, gives none of that type of impression. I honestly cannot imagine any person getting pleasure or knowledge from reading your posts, which generally consist of a garbled mess of proclamation, declamation, innuendo and also defamation.

@mpaetz thumbed up O's reply there -
but here's a post of mpaetz made a short time ago elsewhere:
"If you didn't constantly bring up your (and everyone else in your family) "high IQ" to justify your claims that all other posters here are mental midgets by comparison no one else here would ever talk about it"

playerafar
mpaetz wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

Bare in mind I told you in my previous response I dont misrepresent your statements, I draw logical conclusions from them and demonstrate them separately.... So your argument here seems to be that the result of a deliberate action is not necessarily based on skill. Okay, what is it alternatively based on in that case? It would also seem to me that moving a pawn is an action as well.

As I have repeatedly stated, the definition of luck involves "one's own actions or abilities". In English the word "or" indicates that the terms being compared differ from each other. Your opinion that my post saying Carlsen's dressing in a manner forbidden by tournament organizers was an "action" on his part referenced his chess "ability" was your misunderstanding English usage (which I do not believe), or an incompetent attempt to refute a point you could not evade (possible), or just frivolous BS (most likely). In any case it WAS a misrepresentation of my post, no matter how often and strenuously you deny it.

'or just frivolous'
'no matter how often and strenuously you deny it'
---------------------------
exactly.
But nobody has a monopoly on criticizing Octo's frivolous claims.
----------------
And neither Octo nor Optimissed could deal with the contrast of a forced mate sequence controlling the outcome of a game - completely and deterministically controlling it - versus other stages of that game or other games of chess where the outcome is not under control and multiple variables aren't under the control of either player.
In addition to trying to invoke the phrase 'game mechanics' as an argument (it isn't) - Octo often trots out the word 'intuition' - he seems to think - again - that just the existence of a word or phrase is an 'argument'. Would Octo's pseudo-intellectualism appeal to Optimissed?
Sure it would.
'Jumbled'? 
I'll take Opto's accusation to mean that he thinks my posts are the exact opposite of that.

taraniyer

that has happened to me before

taraniyer

what a goodly thing if the children of the world could dwell together in peace

taraniyer

darn

taraniyer

it is not as long

OctopusOnSteroids
playerafar wrote:
mpaetz wrote:

'or just frivolous'
'no matter how often and strenuously you deny it'
---------------------------
exactly.
But nobody has a monopoly on criticizing Octo's frivolous claims.
----------------
And neither Octo nor Optimissed could deal with the contrast of a forced mate sequence controlling the outcome of a game - comletely and deterministically controlling it - versus other stages of that game or other games of chess where the outcome is not under control and multiple variables aren't under the control of either player.
In addition to trying to invoke the phrase 'game mechanics' as an argument (it isn't) - Octo often trots out the word 'intuition' - he seems to think - again - that just the existence of a word or phrase is an 'argument'. Would Octo's pseudo-intellectualism appeal to Optimissed?
Sure it would.
'Jumbled'? 
I'll take Opto's accusation to mean that he thinks my posts are the exact opposite of that.

Even when all of the variables arent under full control of the players, it is still the relationship of skill levels between the two players that determines the outcome.... Skill and lack there of are what dictate the game. No randomness, nothing up to chance. Just two players making decisions that are based on their skill level.. consisting of intuition, knowledge and calculation among other things. No room for luck.

What "pseudo-intellectualism" are you talking about exactly, do you want to elaborate?

mpaetz
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

When I talk about fundamental necessities to the game my view is a little more abstract than yours.. I dont consider practicalities of human play and learning to be a relevant criteria at the abstract level of fundamental mechanics of chess. Internet is a necessary tool for us to arrange playable conditions in such an intercontinental manner, but a game of chess can exist without it just fine. Thus, internet failing is simply humans failing at creating playable conditions for that particular incomplete game...

You consider my (practical) demonstration of the weaknesses of your chosen criteria "bogus"... But then again we discussed it for quite a few posts and I must say I'm not that bad at recognizing a refutation when I see one, but I didnt see one. What I propose is that you feel those real world examples are intuitively bogus.. but that is the fault of a faulty framework behind them that Im attempting to point out. In that framework theyre logical. And btw the broken board wasnt an example of such, different context.

Im definitely not disagreeing that in real world conditions random stuff happens, however as Ive explained I think its more logical to think that stuff happens outside of the game and just messes up our arrangements for the beautiful game of chess to take place...

Yes, chess games CAN be played without the internet, or clocks, or boards and pieces, but some games ARE played using such means. Does this mean those are not real chess games?

If broken boards cannot cause chess games to be won/lost why bring it up? How does it have any relation to the subject we are discussing? The same point applies to your other ridiculous diversions such as putting opponents into chokeholds to prevent them from punching their clock. These were all YOUR "chosen criteria", not mine.

You still admit that "random stuff happens" to decide the result of an occasional chess game. If those results are part of chess it is not a wild leap of imagination to consider that those random causes were in actuality part of those specific chess games.

Your "logic" fails due to petitio principii--the idea that you can START with the premise that "chance rather than one's own abilities" cannot result in success in a chess game, and therefore when such things DO occur those games cannot really be "chess".

Radskull-C

As far as I can tell, the only luck you can experience in in-person chess is who you get matched up with in a tournament, and even then, you'll still have to go up against good chess players. There's no avoiding it.

Also, what is a "frill" in this context?

playerafar

Octo just reassigning realities that interfere with his notions as 'not chess'
is pathetic.
An easy target that mpaetz constantly demolishes. In a kind of 'nice' way.
Target practice.
While O demonstrates why Octo never criticizes O in any way including when O blatantly breaks the rules here with direct pejorative namecalling. 
Octo an easy target for O too but in a different way.
--------------------
Why is invoking phony semantics arguments a big conversation piece on the site?
Becaise chessplayers have the time for that?
Actually its only a couple of people 'stroking' Octo's 'position'.
It reminds me of a couple of learned people 'stroking' a member who claimed that 'the Covid virus couldn't spread disease and that no virus could - because of the word 'vesicles'.'
Same idea.
And Octo just asked a question that I had already answered in advance right there.
He does read my posts. So does O. Funny how they pretend to not get it?
No. Too predictable.

playerafar
Radskull-C wrote:

As far as I can tell, the only luck you can experience in in-person chess is who you get matched up with in a tournament, and even then, you'll still have to go up against good chess players. There's no avoiding it.

Also, what is a "frill" in this context?

Hi Radskull.
What's with the 'even then' there?
You already covered it with 'who you get matched up with'.
But - you're right about a particular thing - that that is an instance (among several) of where luck comes in in chess.
You would rather face a much better player - late in the tournament instead of in Round 1.
Or - maybe the best players will knock each other off - and if you're to meet the best player in the final round - maybe he defaults.
Obviously there's lots of luck in chess - but how much at particular times depends on the context.

MrMinecraftBlupBLup

Chess is a game of perfect information, meaning all information about the game state is available to both players. There are no hidden elements or random events that determine the outcome, unlike games like poker or backgammon.

The Role of Skill: The outcome of a chess game is determined by the players' strategic thinking, tactical calculations, and ability to anticipate their opponent's moves.

External Factors that Can Appear Like Luck:

Human Error: Players can make blunders or miss opportunities, which can create situations that seem like luck, but are actually the result of human mistakes.

Opening Preparation: Players who are well-prepared for specific openings may appear "lucky" when they win in such scenarios, but their success is due to their preparation and not random chance.

Time Pressure: Time pressure can lead to rushed decisions and mistakes, which can also create situations that seem like luck.

Opponent's Bad Day: If a player is having a bad day, they might make more mistakes, which can seem like the other player is getting lucky.

Luck vs. Skill: While some situations might appear to be luck, it's important to remember that they are often the result of skill and preparation. A player who is consistently "lucky" is likely a player who is making better decisions and anticipating their opponent's moves more effectively.

The "Luck" of Opponent's Blunders: If a player makes a mistake that their opponent doesn't notice, it might seem like the other player was lucky, but it's actually the result of the first player's mistake.

Ultimately, chess is a game of skill, and the players who are most skilled and prepared will have the best chance of winning.

But, according to @playerafar there is luck in chess ... 

I dont think that but ok, ...

OctopusOnSteroids
mpaetz wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

When I talk about fundamental necessities to the game my view is a little more abstract than yours.. I dont consider practicalities of human play and learning to be a relevant criteria at the abstract level of fundamental mechanics of chess. Internet is a necessary tool for us to arrange playable conditions in such an intercontinental manner, but a game of chess can exist without it just fine. Thus, internet failing is simply humans failing at creating playable conditions for that particular incomplete game...

You consider my (practical) demonstration of the weaknesses of your chosen criteria "bogus"... But then again we discussed it for quite a few posts and I must say I'm not that bad at recognizing a refutation when I see one, but I didnt see one. What I propose is that you feel those real world examples are intuitively bogus.. but that is the fault of a faulty framework behind them that Im attempting to point out. In that framework theyre logical. And btw the broken board wasnt an example of such, different context.

Im definitely not disagreeing that in real world conditions random stuff happens, however as Ive explained I think its more logical to think that stuff happens outside of the game and just messes up our arrangements for the beautiful game of chess to take place...

Yes, chess games CAN be played without the internet, or clocks, or boards and pieces, but some games ARE played using such means. Does this mean those are not real chess games?

If broken boards cannot cause chess games to be won/lost why bring it up? How does it have any relation to the subject we are discussing? The same point applies to your other ridiculous diversions such as putting opponents into chokeholds to prevent them from punching their clock. These were all YOUR "chosen criteria", not mine.

You still admit that "random stuff happens" to decide the result of an occasional chess game. If those results are part of chess it is not a wild leap of imagination to consider that those random causes were in actuality part of those specific chess games.

Your "logic" fails due to petitio principii--the idea that you can START with the premise that "chance rather than one's own abilities" cannot result in success in a chess game, and therefore when such things DO occur those games cannot really be "chess".

Nothing I havent explained before, but none the less chess games arranged by any human method are real games of course.. but when that arrangement fails I feel it is more accurate to say its chance playing its part in the functionality of those arrangements, not in the game itself. Again we could choose not to do that and rather say an internet connection must be, lets say, an 'in game factor'.. Simply because it can be crucial for the players success in a game. Familiar dilemmas follow.. If one is to consider a random connection issue as luck in chess, then anything deliberate one can do to maintain or acquire a better connection must be skill in chess.. It is quite logical. The dilemmas stem from internet having nothing to do with game mechanics or principles.

What is the purpose of me mentioning the broken board? As I said in previous post, check context... It was mentioned in discussing the role of physical properties of a platform in relation to game mechanics and other fundamentals of chess. What I explained was that the physical properties serve a purpose as a tool that allows us to express our chess game in a physical manner, using our hands. The physical board introduces rules regarding how we are meant to touch the pieces, which are a part of other game principles in that context. What I wanted to say with the broken board was that even tho there are certain mechanics it governs, the properties of the physical material itself is not to be considered an in game factor... One of the pieces breaking, for instance, is rather the tool or platform once again failing (much like the internet), not one of the players just randomly losing a horse in the game..

"If those results are part of chess it is not a wild leap of imagination to consider that those random causes were in actuality part of those specific chess games."

It is not wild but rather understandable... what Im trying to do is unpack that view and propose a more logical version of how to define 'in game factors'.

And no, I dont start with such premise as you claim.. thats rather the conclusion. Thats not a logical argument but a false assumption of a premise I havent suggested.

playerafar
MrMinecraftBlupBLup wrote:

Chess is a game of perfect information, meaning all information about the game state is available to both players. There are no hidden elements or random events that determine the outcome, unlike games like poker or backgammon.

The Role of Skill: The outcome of a chess game is determined by the players' strategic thinking, tactical calculations, and ability to anticipate their opponent's moves.

External Factors that Can Appear Like Luck:

Human Error: Players can make blunders or miss opportunities, which can create situations that seem like luck, but are actually the result of human mistakes.

Opening Preparation: Players who are well-prepared for specific openings may appear "lucky" when they win in such scenarios, but their success is due to their preparation and not random chance.

Time Pressure: Time pressure can lead to rushed decisions and mistakes, which can also create situations that seem like luck.

Opponent's Bad Day: If a player is having a bad day, they might make more mistakes, which can seem like the other player is getting lucky.

Luck vs. Skill: While some situations might appear to be luck, it's important to remember that they are often the result of skill and preparation. A player who is consistently "lucky" is likely a player who is making better decisions and anticipating their opponent's moves more effectively.

The "Luck" of Opponent's Blunders: If a player makes a mistake that their opponent doesn't notice, it might seem like the other player was lucky, but it's actually the result of the first player's mistake.

Ultimately, chess is a game of skill, and the players who are most skilled and prepared will have the best chance of winning.

But, according to @playerafar there is luck in chess ... 

I dont think that but ok, ...

According to reality.
Regardless of chess being a game of skill there is luck in the game.
And you might have slipped up just now Mr.M
with 'best chance' ...
-----------------------
Are you going to maintain that a player who wins a game he was losing because his opponent's internet connection fails 'wasn't lucky'?
That's not about me you know.
The luck is there regardless of however you're reminded about the reality.
Perhaps you'll resort to Octo's 'maneuver' of trying to maintain that such things 'aren't chess' ....
Octo could have posted that exactly once - but perhaps there'll be at least 200 reiterations of that same unreality from Octo - or rather - another 200.
Events that determine the outcome of a game 'aren't chess'? ...
--------------------------
I've heard there are some persons trying to insist that the earth is flat too ...
Not rhomboid or heart shaped or mushroom-shaped but ...
'flat'. I'd say their idea kind of 'falls flat'.
Perhaps if Octo ever loses a game because of failed connection he can appeal to chess.com and claim 'that game should be annulled because its 'not chess' '
---------------------
Do chessplayers often deny reality?
Sure.
For example those that get very exicted and upset if their opponent doesn't give them a takeback - or those that become angry on losing a game and the winner refuses to give them a rematch.
But most of the young boys on the site who want takebacks and rematches and don't get them - they'll grow up eventually - if they haven't already got there.
There are many players who will Never ask for a takeback.
And never ask for a rematch either.

Elroch
MrMinecraftBlupBLup wrote:

Chess is a game of perfect information, meaning all information about the game state is available to both players. There are no hidden elements or random events that determine the outcome, unlike games like poker or backgammon.

The Role of Skill: The outcome of a chess game is determined by the players' strategic thinking, tactical calculations, and ability to anticipate their opponent's moves.

External Factors that Can Appear Like Luck:

Human Error: Players can make blunders or miss opportunities, which can create situations that seem like luck, but are actually the result of human mistakes.

Opening Preparation: Players who are well-prepared for specific openings may appear "lucky" when they win in such scenarios, but their success is due to their preparation and not random chance.

Time Pressure: Time pressure can lead to rushed decisions and mistakes, which can also create situations that seem like luck.

Opponent's Bad Day: If a player is having a bad day, they might make more mistakes, which can seem like the other player is getting lucky.

Luck vs. Skill: While some situations might appear to be luck, it's important to remember that they are often the result of skill and preparation. A player who is consistently "lucky" is likely a player who is making better decisions and anticipating their opponent's moves more effectively.

The "Luck" of Opponent's Blunders: If a player makes a mistake that their opponent doesn't notice, it might seem like the other player was lucky, but it's actually the result of the first player's mistake.

Ultimately, chess is a game of skill, and the players who are most skilled and prepared will have the best chance of winning.

But, according to @playerafar there is luck in chess ... 

I dont think that but ok, ...

Not a bad AI answer.

MrChatty

> Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

Yes.

Thank you for your attention, the topic may be closed finally

VerifiedChessYarshe
emilio1689 wrote:

> Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

Yes.

Thank you for your attention, the topic may be closed finally

Yes.

Most people here can't accept the conclusion, which is why this forum has lasted over a decade to debate about a yes-no question. Losing Internet connection is now luck, no need to be too complex.

playerafar

VCY - nothing complex about losing internet connection.
Its very simple.
You lose.
Were you winning?
Bad luck.
-------------------------
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AGC-Gambit_YT
DiogenesDue wrote:
xrxsy wrote:

hi am I aloud to join ur group chat I am a world time champ my name is Alireza Firouzja

Impersonating a titled player is an actionable offense on the forums.

yes it is

MrMinecraftBlupBLup
Elroch wrote:
MrMinecraftBlupBLup wrote:

Chess is a game of perfect information, meaning all information about the game state is available to both players. There are no hidden elements or random events that determine the outcome, unlike games like poker or backgammon.

The Role of Skill: The outcome of a chess game is determined by the players' strategic thinking, tactical calculations, and ability to anticipate their opponent's moves.

External Factors that Can Appear Like Luck:

Human Error: Players can make blunders or miss opportunities, which can create situations that seem like luck, but are actually the result of human mistakes.

Opening Preparation: Players who are well-prepared for specific openings may appear "lucky" when they win in such scenarios, but their success is due to their preparation and not random chance.

Time Pressure: Time pressure can lead to rushed decisions and mistakes, which can also create situations that seem like luck.

Opponent's Bad Day: If a player is having a bad day, they might make more mistakes, which can seem like the other player is getting lucky.

Luck vs. Skill: While some situations might appear to be luck, it's important to remember that they are often the result of skill and preparation. A player who is consistently "lucky" is likely a player who is making better decisions and anticipating their opponent's moves more effectively.

The "Luck" of Opponent's Blunders: If a player makes a mistake that their opponent doesn't notice, it might seem like the other player was lucky, but it's actually the result of the first player's mistake.

Ultimately, chess is a game of skill, and the players who are most skilled and prepared will have the best chance of winning.

But, according to @playerafar there is luck in chess ... 

I dont think that but ok, ...

Not a bad AI answer.

Bro just because YOU didnt type it does not mean its AI. But yea its AI, i wanted to see AI has to say about this topic then show it to you people

But ,these accusations in chess.com are getting on my nerves...

Just the other day i got reported because i did a threefold repetition draw by accident (can u blame me?).