Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

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DiogenesDue
CooloutAC wrote:

He probably did,  but like most quotes,  it is taken completely out of context.   To me its evident in the line why he was emphasizing one type of player over the other.  Especially given his beliefs about the game and his style of play,  and how much of an avid sportsmen he was.  The guy  played many sports and was an international ambassador for the game of chess.    I see it as a subtle scolding towards people like you and many in this thread.  He was not your stereotypical chess player lol.

He was also one of fischer's idols.  And its no surprise Fischer was also constantly to improve the game to make it more sporting and fair.

Now Coolout is a necromancer that speaks to chess champions dead for generations...

If not for him, how would we know what Capablanca and Fischer are thinking from beyond the grave?

Praise be.

What_did_I_do_wrong
Mugo345 wrote:
 

"Luck" makes no sense whether logically or religiously. I believe that God's plan (destiny) exists but free will also exists. You may think that is impossible, but I know it doesn't make sense in an earthly logic, but since I am Christian I believe that it is part of the great mystery of heaven and earth. I believe God created time, space, and destiny. So even though it doesn't make sense to us, it makes sense in the logic that since God (the universe, speaking non-religiously) created it to work in that way we cannot understand. So in that sense, "Luck" doesn't exist. Also, before you say God is not existant, think of this; Something/Someone had to have created time, and all the particles and matter. God isn't a sky wizard God (I state in the sense that God isn't a super natural being, but the universe itself. Therefore in the sense that I have stated; "Luck" is nonexistent. That is my philosophy, you don't have to agree, but think about it.

This whole gibberish doesn't even make sense in an earthly logic or any other logic. Since we are living on earth, stick to earth. What an absurd non sense! Almost all so called christians are big hypocrites. Plus you can downvote all you want. But the truth hurts. cry lol hahaha

Mugo345
CooloutAC wrote:
Mugo345 wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Mugo345 wrote:
hebrides wrote:

The mighty Capablanca used to say: "The good player is always lucky".

a famous person can say anything and people will instantly believe it without question.

 

I don't think he meant that literally though lol.  People interpret that to suit their own narratives.   But imo,  Capablanca treated chess like an actual sport.  He is one of the people that made a variant because he felt chess would become obsolete as theory got more advanced.  Much like Bobby Fischer.     He hated studying chess,  and was a one of the greatest natural talents in chess history who loved the art and style of the game.  

Its common sportsmanship to say I got lucky when you win.  Its the honorable and humble thing to say to your opponent to be sporting.  The reason he is emphasizing  the "good" player is always lucky,   and not the bad player.   He is also probably  conveying that when a bad player loses he always accuses the winner of getting lucky.    Like many of the people with superiority complexes in this thread do when they claim low level players only win by luck.     Capablanca, imo,  was calling out people like that for being bad sports.

Yeah, I know no almost no one when being interviewed means things literally (because often their just improvising theorys or jocking) but it's annoying how people take these things seriously only because they were said by a celebrity or famous person.


The quote is most surely and purposely taking out of context.   Capablanca is basically encouraging good sportsmanship among players, imo.   He played baseball  and tennis, went to school in NYC,     He constantly petitioned to make the sport more fair,  tried to make the sport more popular.   He is the only latin champion in history and he travelled all over the world as an ambassador.

Capablanca sounds like a great guy. Also your probably right about it being taken out of context, but I'm just annoyed that people take things that famous people said out of context simply because they were said by a famous person and turn them into quotes. More than half of the quotes out there are completely untrue and the worst part is people only do that for money.

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:
Mugo345 wrote:
 

"Luck" makes no sense whether logically or religiously. I believe that God's plan (destiny) exists but free will also exists. You may think that is impossible, but I know it doesn't make sense in an earthly logic, but since I am Christian I believe that it is part of the great mystery of heaven and earth. I believe God created time, space, and destiny. So even though it doesn't make sense to us, it makes sense in the logic that since God (the universe, speaking non-religiously) created it to work in that way we cannot understand. So in that sense, "Luck" doesn't exist. Also, before you say God is not existant, think of this; Something/Someone had to have created time, and all the particles and matter. God isn't a sky wizard God (I state in the sense that God isn't a super natural being, but the universe itself. Therefore in the sense that I have stated; "Luck" is nonexistent. That is my philosophy, you don't have to agree, but think about it.

This whole gibberish doesn't even make sense in an earthly logic or any other logic. Since we are living on earth, stick to earth. What an absurd non sense! Almost all so called christians are big hypocrites.

wow jeez, I never asked you to believe in christianity or call us hypocrites, but it is understandable if you think about it, and it is one of the very many reasons why "luck" simply, DOSEN'T EXIST!! OK??

What_did_I_do_wrong

Whatever! By you believing in something doesn't make that a truth. If you believe luck doesn't exist, it doesn't for YOU, your belief isn't the ultimate truth. 

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:
Mugo345 wrote:
 

"Luck" makes no sense whether logically or religiously. I believe that God's plan (destiny) exists but free will also exists. You may think that is impossible, but I know it doesn't make sense in an earthly logic, but since I am Christian I believe that it is part of the great mystery of heaven and earth. I believe God created time, space, and destiny. So even though it doesn't make sense to us, it makes sense in the logic that since God (the universe, speaking non-religiously) created it to work in that way we cannot understand. So in that sense, "Luck" doesn't exist. Also, before you say God is not existant, think of this; Something/Someone had to have created time, and all the particles and matter. God isn't a sky wizard God (I state in the sense that God isn't a super natural being, but the universe itself. Therefore in the sense that I have stated; "Luck" is nonexistent. That is my philosophy, you don't have to agree, but think about it.

This whole gibberish doesn't even make sense in an earthly logic or any other logic. Since we are living on earth, stick to earth. What an absurd non sense! Almost all so called christians are big hypocrites. Plus you can downvote all you want. But the truth hurts. lol hahaha

For your info, I am not a hypocrite!! This is my genuine theory on the great mystery. And in time when death falls upon both of us we will see. 

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:

Whatever! By you believing in something doesn't make that a truth. If you believe luck doesn't exist, it doesn't for YOU, your belief isn't the ultimate truth. 

Believing in something?? Time, space,  matter, everything had to be created somehow. Is that not enough proof?

DiogenesDue
CooloutAC wrote:

They are thinking dam all these people for trying to kill the sport.  So is Mikhail Tal my friend.  😏

Of course, they are spelling it "damn"...

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:

Whatever! By you believing in something doesn't make that a truth. If you believe luck doesn't exist, it doesn't for YOU, your belief isn't the ultimate truth. 

There are way more reasons why your so called "luck" can't exist!!

What_did_I_do_wrong

You see, this is what I'm talking about. Proof of what, God? or that the 'luck' doesn't exist? Do you even know what you're writing? hahahaha

What_did_I_do_wrong

What does luck have to do with someone creating time, space and matter and so on.? hahaha

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:

You see, this is what I'm talking about. Proof of what, God? or that the 'luck' doesn't exist? Do you even know what you're writing? hahahaha

I know what I'm writing perfectly well, if you want to argue more about my beliefs, go ahead and argue to a catholic priest. It's literally impossible to argue with you. 

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:

What does luck have to do with someone creating time, space and matter and so on.? hahaha

it matters because in the sense that God created everything, luck simply doesn't exist since God has a plan for everyone in life. His dream is for one day people will work together in peace to get to heaven and love each other.

Kotshmot
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:

Lets make this more concrete. Miscalculations in chess happen at all levels so elo is irrelevant in this argument, but to keep it simple for arguments sake let's take a beginner player in our example.

A beginner makes a queen move to attack a pawn. The move ends up winning the game for a different reason, one the beginner couldn't calculate before making the move.

If luck doesn't exist in chess, what caused him to win this game? Was it his skill level that topped his opponent? If so, explain how.

 

Absolutely it was his skill.  You keep repeating this over and over and I will keep repeating the answer.    It was his human ability,  His educated guess,  his intuition based on his chess experience,  His own actions and efforts.   It was not a randomizing device that chose his move as in a  "game of chance".   Someone taking a "chance" on a move,  does not mean "luck" played a role in it.   Especially when we adhere to the definition of the very word you are ignorantly debating.

Also take exercised skills such as reflexes and muscle memory,  they are sharpened and honed and become automatic without "thinking" first.   But they are still considered skills.   Ziryab will tell you that Magnus explains his fast intuition as something that comes from his experience and knowledge.  That is like muscle memory applied to chess.

And it is an extreme contradiction to start your flawed argument with "Skill ratings don't play a rolse in this argument.......but lets take  a beginner player for example..."   lol  And this is what it boils down for someone like you.   You want to feel superior over beginner players.    My friend,  The human variable negates any luck.   Period.  The human variable = skill no matter what their chances are,  and no matter how low a level of skill.

"Intuitition, human ability, educated guess"

You can't follow even a simple example so honestly why do you participate in the conversation? The whole point of the beginner example was that he made an UNEDUCATED guess with no ability or intuition behind it and calculated wrong, still with a positive outcome.

All you did was say nonsense and proceed with a strawman argument insulting me. Don't waste peoples time if you have nothing to give to this conversation, no1 rates it.

Task was to explain if luck didnt exist in chess, how did the players skill decide the game.

Mugo345

@AKshath0 so please, if you have any more rude things to say about my religion; keep them to yourself. I think that's what your supposed to learn in kindergarten anyway...

the only thing your doing here is discouraging people to believe in God.

What_did_I_do_wrong
Mugo345 wrote:
Akshath0 wrote:

What does luck have to do with someone creating time, space and matter and so on.? hahaha

it matters because in the sense that God created everything, luck simply doesn't exist since God has a plan for everyone in life. His dream is for one day people will work together in peace to get to heaven and love each other.

Whahahahha ! what a joke! Since you're not "God", you can't speak for God, to say that luck simply doesn't exist is absurd. whatever you are saying that heaven and all non sense is simply your belief that your adults have taught you to believe in. You have no direct experience of any of the stuff you're talking. hahaha

LeeEuler
CooloutAC wrote:
noelliee wrote:

i think there can be luck in chess because if someone inexperienced makes a random move that happens to be good, isn't that considered luck?

 

No,  its not by definition because it is from their own action.   Its still an educated guess from their intuition based on what ever little amount of chess knowledge they have.   It can only be considered truly random if they used a randomizing device to determine the move.

I don't understand this preoccupation with "own action" (and before you say otherwise, I agree it is part of one of many good definitions, just that you are using it in a way that is not meant by the said definition).

You can say the exact same things about my earlier example of Deal Or No Deal. The participant makes an educated guess from their intuition based on what ever little amount of knowledge they have on the contents of the suitcase. But we do not call their selection skill just because they were the one's performing the action.

When you are using "own efforts" in such a way, you must presuppose your conclusion, e.g. the correct selection in Deal Or No Deal is lucky because it didn't come from your own efforts (because it's lucky!), whereas the "correct" move in chess is 100% skillful because it did come from your efforts (because it is 100% skillful).

What_did_I_do_wrong
Mugo345 wrote:

@AKshath0 so please, if you have any more rude things to say about my religion; keep them to yourself. I think that's what your supposed to learn in kindergarten anyway...

the only thing your doing here is discouraging people to believe in God.

And the only thing YOU are trying to do is preaching your gospel to people who simply asked whether luck exists in chess or not. Look at yourself before pointing finger to me. what a joke!

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:
Mugo345 wrote:
Akshath0 wrote:

What does luck have to do with someone creating time, space and matter and so on.? hahaha

it matters because in the sense that God created everything, luck simply doesn't exist since God has a plan for everyone in life. His dream is for one day people will work together in peace to get to heaven and love each other.

Whahahahha ! what a joke! Since you're not "God", you can't speak for God, to say that luck simply doesn't exist is absurd. whatever you are saying that heaven and all non sense is simply your belief that your adults have taught you to believe in. You have no direct experience of any of the stuff you're talking. hahaha

You know what? I've had enough of you. If you want to continue this argument take it up with a priest! Let's see how long you can argue.

Mugo345
Akshath0 wrote:
Mugo345 wrote:

@AKshath0 so please, if you have any more rude things to say about my religion; keep them to yourself. I think that's what your supposed to learn in kindergarten anyway...

the only thing your doing here is discouraging people to believe in God.

And the only thing YOU are trying to do is preaching your gospel to people who simply asked whether luck exists in chess or not. Look at yourself before pointing finger to me. what a joke!

I am simply saying another reason why "luck can't exist"! How hard to understand?