Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?

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Mike_Kalish
Optimissed wrote:
mikekalish wrote:

When I was in school, I learned what a definition is.  Back then, to define something was clear.... you assign it to a class, and then you differentiate it from all other members of that class. For example,

Convertible:  A vehicle which has an easily removable roof and can be driven with or without the roof. 

By this standard, some dictionary meanings probably do fall into the category of "definitions" and some may not. 

That seems true but there's a "but". Obviously, "convertible" has different meanings, It's an adjective which has come to be used as a noun in some circumstances. For instance, btickles may be convertible from a card-carrying idjit to an intelligent person, by means of an application of loving care and attention. Doubtful, though.

Words can have multiple definitions, but each one should place the subject in a classs and differentiate it from all others in the class.  For example....table. It can be a piece of furniture or a group of numbers, but either definition should do those two things. Your "but" is really more of an "and". 

PlayByDay
mpaetz skrev:
CooloutAC wrote:

Also the topic of this thread is luck IN the game,  any forces of luck that can affect the game that are unintended and incidental are irrelevant and not part of the discussion on the important distinction between chess or sports compared to other games.  Luck is a force that increases ones chances of success or failure, without ones OWN actions, ability or efforts.  PERIOD.

     Here you outright admit that there ARE "forces of luck that can affect the game". Your preposterous quibbling that somehow these aren't really part of the game is just your desperate attempt to disprove what you freely admit is reality.

     Your assertion that ONLY your opinion of what the OP meant by "in chess" can be considered here is hokum. You are not the ultimate authority. Constantly repeating that others using parameters other than yours are ipso facto always incorrect is meaningless.

     I'm also amused that you regularly claim you always know that GMs or professional athletes really mean something different when they say they got lucky, or that luck plays a part in their sport. It's really ironic when you also lambaste others for trying to explain what someone else may have meant in a quote.

     This forum is about the existence of any element of luck in chess, not a comparison with other games.


To be fair, he could talk about game design of chess. As such, the element of randomness in the game is only choice of color. Since every game of skill without randomness, where at least one human player is participating, will gave luck or chance from the “outside”. 

That just means that even the most skillbased game will have element of chance if human players are involved. So differnce between poker, chess and flipping a coin is degree of chance instead of mix, pure skill and pure chance as some would claim.

Mugo345

I think this all comes down to how people view luck. Some people don't believe in it because they have a religious belief, some people do believe in it, some people don't believe in it because they have a completely different belief or view on the universe etc. (this is just my opinion, you don't have to agree, and this is certainly not another invitation to criticize me because I have a religious belief.)

Kotshmot
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Nytemere wrote:

I once played a move not knowing the threat and the move actually defended the threat. That's what I consider lucky

In chess I think that barely qualifies as luck because it's something you should have known. But loosely that is indeed good luck because it resulted in good fortune, which is good luck. In my opinion it's likely you played the move for a reason, and it happened to be good, so that's mostly skill, but still a small amount of luck. But if you played the move for no reason at all, and just randomly move any piece (and it happened to be that one) and the move defended the threat, THEN it would be luck. 

If you don't know that your opponent has a threat in the position and you make a move for another reason, the odds of this move defending the threat are the same as a move by a random number generator. Both are luck

 

Absolutely not,  because a random generator does not have any intuition,  no exercised skills, nothing that comes from practice, knowledge and experience.   You have absolutely no sports sense at all.  This is why the presence of the human factor always negates luck.  There is no way to argue around it.  We are not random devices and we are not computers.   I'm amazed how so many people seem to claim otherwise depending on what suits their narratives,  without first acknowledging what should be a common sense fact.

I've told you before that all human ability, intuition, experience, knowledge included cannot take every function of a chess move into account when making a move. Therefore there are available tactics, or like in this case a threat, that you miss on the board. This is what you are not able to understand. 


First of all its also about your opponents moves,  because this is a competitive sport my friend.   If you believe there is some other force determining the moves,  then point to that force and state when it does.  Otherwise you are conceding my points and simply look stubborn in denial. 

But even if some other force existed in chess,  Human ability increasing your chances of success or failure,  is all that matters in the end regardless.   Because that means skill is the role and factor in the competition,  and every move in chess,  nothing else.

This logic does not hold any water, your understanding is on a very surface level here. Human force when it comes to chess, is very specificly determined.

If I move a piece randomly, all moves are decided by luck, this we can obviously agree on. Now if you play blindfolded and don't know your opponents moves, you can still apply some of your ability, play a solid opening and try your best - But luck is involved as you don't see the board right? Now if you defend a mate threat you don't know exists, you would consider yourself lucky. This same concept applies to you playing with your full ability as well, there is no difference. This is how luck and skill coexist.

 

Again,  make an attempt to explain your claim or its just another flamboyant concession.  What is the force of luck?  Complicating things does not make them true.   You are pointing to human ability again and calling it skill or luck at your own convenience.  You are being dishonest with yourself because there is no force of luck to point to.

You never  move a piece randomly because you are not a randomizing device.  Everything you do is based on knowledge, practice, experience as part of your intuition  whether you are conscious of that fact or not.  Your mind is part of your human ability.   Thats why when your action exists it is automatically a level of skill and not luck.    I might say I am lucky,  but I would not mean that technically nor literally for the reasons I have explained.  Its simply a humble expression of sportsmanship to save me or my opponent from embarrassment, or an expression of a poor sport.   Which is an important distinction one must make to judge fairness and sportiveness in a game.

Luck is not a force. A lucky event is when some occurence out of your control, typically against unlikely odds, results in a good out come. The force creating this situation can be anything, wind, gravity, or a human failure that turns out beneficial.

 

Two contradictions by you in a single sentence.  a new record.   Just like I told mpaetz which you disagreed with, once you admit you can increase your chances,  that means it is in your control.   And yes it is a force,  just like wind, gravity or human force.  Very good.  Or the random kinetic force?,  in randomizing devices like dice rolls, shuffled cards,  slot machines,  etc..    But as the definition states the force of luck is one that is not your own.  And for the reasons I stated,  its to distinguish between what is fair or sporting,   and so poor sports like you can't diminish rightful human achievement of skill.  And its why you can't point forces of luck in chess.  The luck you are talking about does not exist like the young Mugo has observed from you.

So you believe luck is a force, like gravity for example.. I don't understand this at all. This would mean luck doesn't exist at all, because everything that happens has a force behind it that we can determine. So where do you see luck as a force existing, if anywhere?

This needs to be cleared up 

lfPatriotGames

Good grief. Luck is now "a force, just like wind, gravity". I'm not a nerd, but I'll bet there are plenty of nerds here who can explain things like gravity with some sort of mathematical equation. I would love to see the mathematical explanation describing luck. 

There is probably another mathematical equation that describes how some people just get dumber and dumber. 

ShubhamSinha_GM

Well if opponents get offline due to bad connection and you win even you are in bad position only then it's luck. If he blunder and you win then you win by your skill that means the opponent has low skill than you chess is not about luck at all it's about your skills. Thanks.

Mike_Kalish
lfPatriotGames wrote:

Good grief. Luck is now "a force, just like wind, gravity". I'm not a nerd, but I'll bet there are plenty of nerds here who can explain things like gravity with some sort of mathematical equation. I would love to see the mathematical explanation describing luck. 

There is probably another mathematical equation that describes how some people just get dumber and dumber. 

I'm a bit of a nerd and can explain the physics of gravity. The attraction between two bodies of mass is proportional to the masses of the two bodies and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. This "force" existed before humans understood it. It was part of the universe as the universe was created. Luck was not created until humans came along and started making up words to describe vague concepts that they didn't actually define or even agree on. Luck is a concept, not a "thing".  Even statistics is a human construct, but at least statistics is something that can be quantified and understood and humans agree on what it is and how it works, at least humans who are educated in this subject. 
Luck is just something to disagree on. You can have your opinions on luck, but when you start down the path of being "sure" and talking "facts", you are on very shaky ground. 

 

Of all the things to discuss in these forums, it amazes me how much time and effort are wasted on meaningless debates like this.  Serious waste of good brain power.

Mike_Kalish

PS  At the elite scientific level, there is some disagreement on gravity...and even whether it actually exists. There are scientists proposing alternative explanations for the effects we observe and attribute to gravity. I don't have an opinion on those. I'm not THAT much of a nerd. But I find it fascinating and believe it's important to remain open to radical new ideas...like the earth being round and revolving around the sun.

lfPatriotGames
CooloutAC wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

Good grief. Luck is now "a force, just like wind, gravity". I'm not a nerd, but I'll bet there are plenty of nerds here who can explain things like gravity with some sort of mathematical equation. I would love to see the mathematical explanation describing luck. 

There is probably another mathematical equation that describes how some people just get dumber and dumber. 

 

You are the first one to bring to our attention the word force in many of the definitions of luck.  And you literally asked why the word is used in them.   And ironically it is because of you I now speak of it and have been for over a week now.    Every day you get more and more dishonest in my eyes. Now you are pretending this is the first time you are hearing of it?   Shame on you.

How about instead of skirting around the issue, address the matter being discussed. You said luck is a force like gravity or the wind. So, what is the mathematical equation for luck? In other words, how, specifically can it's affect be predicted? I don't mean generally, I mean speciically. 

What is the equation that will predict the EXACT amount of luck for any given event?

lfPatriotGames
CooloutAC wrote:
mikekalish wrote:

PS  At the elite scientific level, there is some disagreement on gravity...and even whether it actually exists. There are scientists proposing alternative explanations for the effects we observe and attribute to gravity. I don't have an opinion on those. I'm not THAT much of a nerd. But I find it fascinating and believe it's important to remain open to radical new ideas...like the earth being round and revolving around the sun.

 

Well that is one of the definitions of luck.   an unknown cause.  We can fully define human action.  we can see it and point to it as tangible.   but we can't really point to kinetic force,  gravity,  what makes the wind move,  we can't really fully define these things.  thats why some equate luck as if talking about a divine presence.   Even a player's skill level we can only estimate.    But we must remember that for something to be lucky or unlucky,   we must first conclude if the chances of success or failure in the competition can be increased by ones own ability and efforts,   and is the result of ones own action inherently bad or good towards that goal.

Perfect. Since you are now defining luck as "an unknown cause" we can use the examples given for luck in chess. I move my pawn to b6. Someone asks why. I say I don't know. As in, literally, I don't know. It's completely unknown. Nobody knows. It was just a move that didn't have any appeal over any other. No reason, or cause, it just happened to be my turn, so I moved there.

Mike_Kalish
Optimissed wrote:
mikekalish wrote:
 

I'm pretty sure gravity is intrinsic to matter. That is, it's one of the properties of matter in a much more direct and real way than gravitonianismification, which is a word that means "getting people believing believing made up ideas like gravitons because it sounds clever is good". There is an alternative theory that has gravity as an intrinsic property of space but it's also possible that matter and space are each other's anti-entities.

You might be "pretty sure" but some very sophisticated scientists have proposed theories that would say you shouldn't be so sure. Of course, they are just "theories", but do yourself a favor and don't try to tell them what you're "pretty sure" of. It's a debate you don't want to have, or at least shouldn't want to have. The essence of what they are saying is that there is NO SUCH THING as gravity in any form in any sense. I'm not smart enough to agree or disagree, but they're not idiots and their theory does hold scientific water....a lot more than "pretty sure" based on..... well, I guess I don't know what it's based on. 

mpaetz
mikekalish wrote:

PS  At the elite scientific level, there is some disagreement on gravity...and even whether it actually exists. There are scientists proposing alternative explanations for the effects we observe and attribute to gravity. I don't have an opinion on those. I'm not THAT much of a nerd. But I find it fascinating and believe it's important to remain open to radical new ideas...like the earth being round and revolving around the sun.

    I think that gravity is just the term for the specific type of gravitation that exists between a large mass such as a planet and any smaller object within its gravitational field. Gravitation is the (very weak) force that attracts any two masses toward each other. If a bag of marbles is opened up in a zero-gravity environment such as the space station, eventually they will all drift together in a loose spherical jumble. Scientists continue to study the basic forces and theorize if and what kind of other force(s) underlie them. 

mpaetz
Optimissed wrote:

<<The essence of what they are saying is that there is NO SUCH THING as gravity in any form in any sense. I'm not smart enough to agree or disagree>>

I can tell. If I jump off a chair, my trajectory is towards the centre of mass of the Earth. Perhaps you misunderstood the sophisticated scientists or perhaps they are confused. The third option is that their trajectory isn't towards the centre of mass of the Earth but towards a bottle of whisky? Not that I have anything against whisky but stop being so sure of yourself. You aren't talking to someone you should feel confident, regarding the idea that you're justified in talking down to them.

     Please look again; the first thing I said was "I think", making no pretense of superior knowledge. The attraction labeled "gravitation" patently exists; it may be utterly different in nature from what accepted scientific theories currently believe, but without something of that sort the earth wouldn't be held in orbit around the sun.

     

mpaetz

    But I'm not criticizing you for the way in which you did so. How about showing others the same consideration.

Kotshmot
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Nytemere wrote:

I once played a move not knowing the threat and the move actually defended the threat. That's what I consider lucky

In chess I think that barely qualifies as luck because it's something you should have known. But loosely that is indeed good luck because it resulted in good fortune, which is good luck. In my opinion it's likely you played the move for a reason, and it happened to be good, so that's mostly skill, but still a small amount of luck. But if you played the move for no reason at all, and just randomly move any piece (and it happened to be that one) and the move defended the threat, THEN it would be luck. 

If you don't know that your opponent has a threat in the position and you make a move for another reason, the odds of this move defending the threat are the same as a move by a random number generator. Both are luck

 

Absolutely not,  because a random generator does not have any intuition,  no exercised skills, nothing that comes from practice, knowledge and experience.   You have absolutely no sports sense at all.  This is why the presence of the human factor always negates luck.  There is no way to argue around it.  We are not random devices and we are not computers.   I'm amazed how so many people seem to claim otherwise depending on what suits their narratives,  without first acknowledging what should be a common sense fact.

I've told you before that all human ability, intuition, experience, knowledge included cannot take every function of a chess move into account when making a move. Therefore there are available tactics, or like in this case a threat, that you miss on the board. This is what you are not able to understand. 


First of all its also about your opponents moves,  because this is a competitive sport my friend.   If you believe there is some other force determining the moves,  then point to that force and state when it does.  Otherwise you are conceding my points and simply look stubborn in denial. 

But even if some other force existed in chess,  Human ability increasing your chances of success or failure,  is all that matters in the end regardless.   Because that means skill is the role and factor in the competition,  and every move in chess,  nothing else.

This logic does not hold any water, your understanding is on a very surface level here. Human force when it comes to chess, is very specificly determined.

If I move a piece randomly, all moves are decided by luck, this we can obviously agree on. Now if you play blindfolded and don't know your opponents moves, you can still apply some of your ability, play a solid opening and try your best - But luck is involved as you don't see the board right? Now if you defend a mate threat you don't know exists, you would consider yourself lucky. This same concept applies to you playing with your full ability as well, there is no difference. This is how luck and skill coexist.

 

Again,  make an attempt to explain your claim or its just another flamboyant concession.  What is the force of luck?  Complicating things does not make them true.   You are pointing to human ability again and calling it skill or luck at your own convenience.  You are being dishonest with yourself because there is no force of luck to point to.

You never  move a piece randomly because you are not a randomizing device.  Everything you do is based on knowledge, practice, experience as part of your intuition  whether you are conscious of that fact or not.  Your mind is part of your human ability.   Thats why when your action exists it is automatically a level of skill and not luck.    I might say I am lucky,  but I would not mean that technically nor literally for the reasons I have explained.  Its simply a humble expression of sportsmanship to save me or my opponent from embarrassment, or an expression of a poor sport.   Which is an important distinction one must make to judge fairness and sportiveness in a game.

Luck is not a force. A lucky event is when some occurence out of your control, typically against unlikely odds, results in a good out come. The force creating this situation can be anything, wind, gravity, or a human failure that turns out beneficial.

 

Two contradictions by you in a single sentence.  a new record.   Just like I told mpaetz which you disagreed with, once you admit you can increase your chances,  that means it is in your control.   And yes it is a force,  just like wind, gravity or human force.  Very good.  Or the random kinetic force?,  in randomizing devices like dice rolls, shuffled cards,  slot machines,  etc..    But as the definition states the force of luck is one that is not your own.  And for the reasons I stated,  its to distinguish between what is fair or sporting,   and so poor sports like you can't diminish rightful human achievement of skill.  And its why you can't point forces of luck in chess.  The luck you are talking about does not exist like the young Mugo has observed from you.

So you believe luck is a force, like gravity for example.. I don't understand this at all. This would mean luck doesn't exist at all, because everything that happens has a force behind it that we can determine. So where do you see luck as a force existing, if anywhere?

This needs to be cleared up 

 

How ironic i find your post here...lol  Because you are the one who is unable to point to anything.  and I'm constantly pointing to examples of luck in every post I reply to you with.  Yet you ignorantly block all out of your mind.   Are you not aware of this fact about yourself?    I said kinetic force in dice rolls or slot machines,      I said Patriot had a better argument then you because she at least cited the wind.  It is simply any randomizing device playing a role.   But again,  there are many factors that define luck,  not simply an inhuman force,   chances and results also matter as I have explained many times. 

But do you see why you are forced to call human action both luck and skill,  because you have no other force of action to point to as an example of luck and you need something to prove your false narrative. You don't even understand what luck is.  That is worse then others in this thread,  who understand luck,  but still dishonestly try to point to examples of luck to prove it is in chess.  Yet You have been in this forum for a week,  with no examples at all.     

 

Are you waking up yet?  This is why I constantly told you to look up the definition,   because if we go by what you imply luck to be,  then yes in fact,  Luck does not exist in your world. As I have said directly to you  many times.

I can honestly say I didn't understand a full sentence out of this, in terms of what you wanted to say. It's like you're responding to someone else or something I've never said. Anyone want to traslate? 

lfPatriotGames
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Nytemere wrote:

I once played a move not knowing the threat and the move actually defended the threat. That's what I consider lucky

In chess I think that barely qualifies as luck because it's something you should have known. But loosely that is indeed good luck because it resulted in good fortune, which is good luck. In my opinion it's likely you played the move for a reason, and it happened to be good, so that's mostly skill, but still a small amount of luck. But if you played the move for no reason at all, and just randomly move any piece (and it happened to be that one) and the move defended the threat, THEN it would be luck. 

If you don't know that your opponent has a threat in the position and you make a move for another reason, the odds of this move defending the threat are the same as a move by a random number generator. Both are luck

 

Absolutely not,  because a random generator does not have any intuition,  no exercised skills, nothing that comes from practice, knowledge and experience.   You have absolutely no sports sense at all.  This is why the presence of the human factor always negates luck.  There is no way to argue around it.  We are not random devices and we are not computers.   I'm amazed how so many people seem to claim otherwise depending on what suits their narratives,  without first acknowledging what should be a common sense fact.

I've told you before that all human ability, intuition, experience, knowledge included cannot take every function of a chess move into account when making a move. Therefore there are available tactics, or like in this case a threat, that you miss on the board. This is what you are not able to understand. 


First of all its also about your opponents moves,  because this is a competitive sport my friend.   If you believe there is some other force determining the moves,  then point to that force and state when it does.  Otherwise you are conceding my points and simply look stubborn in denial. 

But even if some other force existed in chess,  Human ability increasing your chances of success or failure,  is all that matters in the end regardless.   Because that means skill is the role and factor in the competition,  and every move in chess,  nothing else.

This logic does not hold any water, your understanding is on a very surface level here. Human force when it comes to chess, is very specificly determined.

If I move a piece randomly, all moves are decided by luck, this we can obviously agree on. Now if you play blindfolded and don't know your opponents moves, you can still apply some of your ability, play a solid opening and try your best - But luck is involved as you don't see the board right? Now if you defend a mate threat you don't know exists, you would consider yourself lucky. This same concept applies to you playing with your full ability as well, there is no difference. This is how luck and skill coexist.

 

Again,  make an attempt to explain your claim or its just another flamboyant concession.  What is the force of luck?  Complicating things does not make them true.   You are pointing to human ability again and calling it skill or luck at your own convenience.  You are being dishonest with yourself because there is no force of luck to point to.

You never  move a piece randomly because you are not a randomizing device.  Everything you do is based on knowledge, practice, experience as part of your intuition  whether you are conscious of that fact or not.  Your mind is part of your human ability.   Thats why when your action exists it is automatically a level of skill and not luck.    I might say I am lucky,  but I would not mean that technically nor literally for the reasons I have explained.  Its simply a humble expression of sportsmanship to save me or my opponent from embarrassment, or an expression of a poor sport.   Which is an important distinction one must make to judge fairness and sportiveness in a game.

Luck is not a force. A lucky event is when some occurence out of your control, typically against unlikely odds, results in a good out come. The force creating this situation can be anything, wind, gravity, or a human failure that turns out beneficial.

 

Two contradictions by you in a single sentence.  a new record.   Just like I told mpaetz which you disagreed with, once you admit you can increase your chances,  that means it is in your control.   And yes it is a force,  just like wind, gravity or human force.  Very good.  Or the random kinetic force?,  in randomizing devices like dice rolls, shuffled cards,  slot machines,  etc..    But as the definition states the force of luck is one that is not your own.  And for the reasons I stated,  its to distinguish between what is fair or sporting,   and so poor sports like you can't diminish rightful human achievement of skill.  And its why you can't point forces of luck in chess.  The luck you are talking about does not exist like the young Mugo has observed from you.

So you believe luck is a force, like gravity for example.. I don't understand this at all. This would mean luck doesn't exist at all, because everything that happens has a force behind it that we can determine. So where do you see luck as a force existing, if anywhere?

This needs to be cleared up 

 

How ironic i find your post here...lol  Because you are the one who is unable to point to anything.  and I'm constantly pointing to examples of luck in every post I reply to you with.  Yet you ignorantly block all out of your mind.   Are you not aware of this fact about yourself?    I said kinetic force in dice rolls or slot machines,      I said Patriot had a better argument then you because she at least cited the wind.  It is simply any randomizing device playing a role.   But again,  there are many factors that define luck,  not simply an inhuman force,   chances and results also matter as I have explained many times. 

But do you see why you are forced to call human action both luck and skill,  because you have no other force of action to point to as an example of luck and you need something to prove your false narrative. You don't even understand what luck is.  That is worse then others in this thread,  who understand luck,  but still dishonestly try to point to examples of luck to prove it is in chess.  Yet You have been in this forum for a week,  with no examples at all.     

 

Are you waking up yet?  This is why I constantly told you to look up the definition,   because if we go by what you imply luck to be,  then yes in fact,  Luck does not exist in your world. As I have said directly to you  many times.

I can honestly say I didn't understand a full sentence out of this, in terms of what you wanted to say. It's like you're responding to someone else or something I've never said. Anyone want to traslate? 

I will give it a try. I believe what he was trying to say is that because all squares are purple, it is now presently 5PM, tomorrow.

Mike_Kalish
Optimissed wrote:
mikekalish wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
mikekalish wrote:
 

I'm pretty sure gravity is intrinsic to matter. That is, it's one of the properties of matter in a much more direct and real way than gravitonianismification, which is a word that means "getting people believing believing made up ideas like gravitons because it sounds clever is good". There is an alternative theory that has gravity as an intrinsic property of space but it's also possible that matter and space are each other's anti-entities.

You might be "pretty sure" but some very sophisticated scientists have proposed theories that would say you shouldn't be so sure. Of course, they are just "theories", but do yourself a favor and don't try to tell them what you're "pretty sure" of. It's a debate you don't want to have, or at least shouldn't want to have. The essence of what they are saying is that there is NO SUCH THING as gravity in any form in any sense. I'm not smart enough to agree or disagree, but they're not idiots and their theory does hold scientific water....a lot more than "pretty sure" based on..... well, I guess I don't know what it's based on. 

While you're trying to justify your hypocrisy, regarding a personal attack based on the fact you started with "I think" and I started with "I'm sure", Mpaetz, perhaps you would like me to show you what was wrong with the way mikekalish addressed me.

<<<but do yourself a favor and don't try to tell them what you're "pretty sure" of. It's a debate you don't want to have, or at least shouldn't want to have>>>

That's a personal attack, based on the judgement that for some reason I shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion. Who thinks I shouldn't want to have such a debate? Why? "Do yourself a favour" is heavily patronising at best. That means it's aggressive. Perhaps, in your culture, aggression is allowed or even welcomed? And if someone gives back like for like according to their OWN culture, they've broken a law?

The post was fine except the middle bit. 

Your point is well taken and I apologize for that. I don' think I meant it as aggressively as it seemed, but I'll be more careful. Anyway, you are right. Have your opinion and express it to anyone who will listen, including scientists. So what if you're proven wrong? You'll have a good debate and learn something. (And I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically)
Again, you're right. You have an opinion and you are (and should be free to express it). 

That said, I do believe that your being "pretty sure" is not well founded, and I would (respectfully) suggest that you do some googling on this subject if it's of interest. 

Kotshmot
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Kotshmot wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Nytemere wrote:

I once played a move not knowing the threat and the move actually defended the threat. That's what I consider lucky

In chess I think that barely qualifies as luck because it's something you should have known. But loosely that is indeed good luck because it resulted in good fortune, which is good luck. In my opinion it's likely you played the move for a reason, and it happened to be good, so that's mostly skill, but still a small amount of luck. But if you played the move for no reason at all, and just randomly move any piece (and it happened to be that one) and the move defended the threat, THEN it would be luck. 

If you don't know that your opponent has a threat in the position and you make a move for another reason, the odds of this move defending the threat are the same as a move by a random number generator. Both are luck

 

Absolutely not,  because a random generator does not have any intuition,  no exercised skills, nothing that comes from practice, knowledge and experience.   You have absolutely no sports sense at all.  This is why the presence of the human factor always negates luck.  There is no way to argue around it.  We are not random devices and we are not computers.   I'm amazed how so many people seem to claim otherwise depending on what suits their narratives,  without first acknowledging what should be a common sense fact.

I've told you before that all human ability, intuition, experience, knowledge included cannot take every function of a chess move into account when making a move. Therefore there are available tactics, or like in this case a threat, that you miss on the board. This is what you are not able to understand. 


First of all its also about your opponents moves,  because this is a competitive sport my friend.   If you believe there is some other force determining the moves,  then point to that force and state when it does.  Otherwise you are conceding my points and simply look stubborn in denial. 

But even if some other force existed in chess,  Human ability increasing your chances of success or failure,  is all that matters in the end regardless.   Because that means skill is the role and factor in the competition,  and every move in chess,  nothing else.

This logic does not hold any water, your understanding is on a very surface level here. Human force when it comes to chess, is very specificly determined.

If I move a piece randomly, all moves are decided by luck, this we can obviously agree on. Now if you play blindfolded and don't know your opponents moves, you can still apply some of your ability, play a solid opening and try your best - But luck is involved as you don't see the board right? Now if you defend a mate threat you don't know exists, you would consider yourself lucky. This same concept applies to you playing with your full ability as well, there is no difference. This is how luck and skill coexist.

 

Again,  make an attempt to explain your claim or its just another flamboyant concession.  What is the force of luck?  Complicating things does not make them true.   You are pointing to human ability again and calling it skill or luck at your own convenience.  You are being dishonest with yourself because there is no force of luck to point to.

You never  move a piece randomly because you are not a randomizing device.  Everything you do is based on knowledge, practice, experience as part of your intuition  whether you are conscious of that fact or not.  Your mind is part of your human ability.   Thats why when your action exists it is automatically a level of skill and not luck.    I might say I am lucky,  but I would not mean that technically nor literally for the reasons I have explained.  Its simply a humble expression of sportsmanship to save me or my opponent from embarrassment, or an expression of a poor sport.   Which is an important distinction one must make to judge fairness and sportiveness in a game.

Luck is not a force. A lucky event is when some occurence out of your control, typically against unlikely odds, results in a good out come. The force creating this situation can be anything, wind, gravity, or a human failure that turns out beneficial.

 

Two contradictions by you in a single sentence.  a new record.   Just like I told mpaetz which you disagreed with, once you admit you can increase your chances,  that means it is in your control.   And yes it is a force,  just like wind, gravity or human force.  Very good.  Or the random kinetic force?,  in randomizing devices like dice rolls, shuffled cards,  slot machines,  etc..    But as the definition states the force of luck is one that is not your own.  And for the reasons I stated,  its to distinguish between what is fair or sporting,   and so poor sports like you can't diminish rightful human achievement of skill.  And its why you can't point forces of luck in chess.  The luck you are talking about does not exist like the young Mugo has observed from you.

So you believe luck is a force, like gravity for example.. I don't understand this at all. This would mean luck doesn't exist at all, because everything that happens has a force behind it that we can determine. So where do you see luck as a force existing, if anywhere?

This needs to be cleared up 

 

How ironic i find your post here...lol  Because you are the one who is unable to point to anything.  and I'm constantly pointing to examples of luck in every post I reply to you with.  Yet you ignorantly block all out of your mind.   Are you not aware of this fact about yourself?    I said kinetic force in dice rolls or slot machines,      I said Patriot had a better argument then you because she at least cited the wind.  It is simply any randomizing device playing a role.   But again,  there are many factors that define luck,  not simply an inhuman force,   chances and results also matter as I have explained many times. 

But do you see why you are forced to call human action both luck and skill,  because you have no other force of action to point to as an example of luck and you need something to prove your false narrative. You don't even understand what luck is.  That is worse then others in this thread,  who understand luck,  but still dishonestly try to point to examples of luck to prove it is in chess.  Yet You have been in this forum for a week,  with no examples at all.     

 

Are you waking up yet?  This is why I constantly told you to look up the definition,   because if we go by what you imply luck to be,  then yes in fact,  Luck does not exist in your world. As I have said directly to you  many times.

I can honestly say I didn't understand a full sentence out of this, in terms of what you wanted to say. It's like you're responding to someone else or something I've never said. Anyone want to traslate? 

I will give it a try. I believe what he was trying to say is that because all squares are purple, it is now presently 5PM, tomorrow.

Thank you, that can't be too far off

Aaryan0913
tresequis wrote:

I won a Live Blitz game against an opponent ("monsieur") after I badly blundered and he badly blundered twice. As I was about to checkmate him he told me I was winning because of "luck".

I definitely didn't play brilliantly and my rating is low (about 1450) but he played worse than me so I beat him. For me, that's not luck.

I have also sometimes been called "lucky" after an opponent has dominated me positionally, but then made a blunder I have checkmated him.

Can you get lucky in chess? Or are there only good moves and bad moves?

No luck isn't true in chess it is only good moves and bad moves

Mike_Kalish

I'm not going to say this was luck, but I don't know where else to post it. I played a game this morning in which my accuracy rating was 24. My average is 50 points higher than that. But the amazing thing is that I won. His accuracy was 20. And we're talking about two players around 1000. 
Is "Blunderfest" a word? Sounds like a name for a German celebration where they drink beer and play chess.