I would not mind having engines, but I do wish that super strong programs like Stockfish and Komodo weren't available. I learned a lot from using Shredder Classic 4, which most GMs could probably compete with on my old computer.
"Weak" engines that can check your tactical mistakes and confirm your ideas are really a great invention.
One night after chess club, 6 of us sat at a Dennys restaurant for 4 hours going over a game played that night. Sure we could have just run the game through an engine, but we learned so much more bouncing ideas off of each others. When the best move in a position was decided on, it was the engines top choice. Nothing replaces human interaction, engaging each other, offering, and getting ideas.
Computerization leads to stronger engines, but one can argue that computerization is inevitable itself. It should've stopped though, with engines like Fritz 6 and Shredder, which are great tools for learning.
So it doesn't make chess better, but it makes sure that people studying without a chess community, like me, don't get biased and actually go backwards because of self-confirmation. The only reason I managed to self-study somewhat effectively was due to intelligent engine use.
Today, as you can see from half of the forum posts on the chess game, that engines are currently more harm than good, at least at the amateur/casual level.
"In the big scheme of things computerization is poison to chess."
"I AM AFRAID THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU, URK."
I remember the two and a half mile walk to the Chess club and back. Urk mentioned descriptive notation; I don't believe I've ever used anything else. I tried using modern notation once but e4 didn't feel the same as writing P-K4, so I crossed it out and wrote it properly. Do you remember Chess sets where the King's Rook had a little crown symbol on the top of it? Maybe they still do; I've not played for years.
I'm torn on the use of computers but I'm coming around to seeing their utility. Obviously, they're great for analysing a game and trying out sub-variations but they can result in laziness. Why spend an hour looking at a position when the answer is already there on screen? Home prep didn't involve turning the computer on, it involved going around to a friend and spending the evening trying out moves on one another and looking at the positions.
Internet chess is also keeping players away from otb tournament. Very few wants to travel an hour or two to participate. And the chess hustlers are having less business too.
urk wrote:
That internet chess is keeping people away from actual chess clubs?
<Urk> on #25 - life in the physical universe involves TIME. The essence of TIME is CHANGE.
When Lasker and Marshall were active, they lived in the PRESENT. They were the YOUNG masters. They were doing it NOW, not leaning back on some imagined nostalgia...
They had to deal with changes (Steinitz theories, Nimzowitsch theories, the terrible mechanization of the world that led to WW I and WW II and many of their dear ones being slaughtered, Lasker himself being impoverished and having to leave his country after age 70!!).
The changes that we have to deal with (engines) seem paltry in comparison...
People would argue about variations and evaluations way before engines became strong - this is the essence of growth as a chess player.
People would think that their rating was too low and obsessed about it also when it was "only" a tournament rating...
Nothing new under the sun as regards some human tendencies (even the tendency for nostalgia!) - many new things as regards the details of a life on a constantly changing and evolving planet...
Solskytz is always positive!!!! :-) (that's not a precise statement, of course... I can also be quite negative on occasion).
And yes, those romantic times of "writing every week to the newspaper with improvements" are gone forever, alas!!
The engine (almost!) always has the ultimate answer. It's best to know where to put it aside, if one still wants to have a game.
Also chess discussion is a game.
It's best to know where to put it aside if one still wants to develop his own thinking faculties, rather than become a slave!
One should know when to USE it, like <Cherub> here is recommending - and the evidence is that he did (does!) grow as a player.
I bet that <Cherub> uses the engine rather sparingly, and generally makes sure to use his own mind as extensively as possible before firing those kilo-nodes.
10 years ago i was weak at chess, haven't watched any videos etc, only online blitz but it was pretty bad, no analyse after games etc and on top of that everybody was cheating if you play longer than 5 min..
I went to my local chess club which was no more than 5-10 players. They were mostly veterans, not friendly at all, angry people.. room was barely fitting all of us but everything was free.. Unfortunately i lost interest quickly... Now since i started to play chess again 3 years ago i wish i had same chess club... now no club... and almost nobody have interest to play chess outside... we have some chess tables in parks but nobody play.. very sad have to feed my hunger with just several tournaments per year that go near me (<50km)
I remember the two and a half mile walk to the Chess club and back.
Was it uphill both ways? HeHe.
That would actually be possible - especially if one lives inside a painting by Escher.
Do you have any proof that it is actually the case ? I guess it is more because chess is not promoted as much as in "the old days" by school chess etc. Maybe internet chess will raise the interest for chess again so people starts to seek the clubs again. Reading the forums here it seems like quite a lot of new players have an interest in starting on FIDE tournaments and OTB play.
The only good an engine does for human players improvement , is working on opening ideas. And in my opinion openings are the most difficult operation to study in chess, because each has their own unique ideas of winning lines ..
The problem with engines is finding the one compatible with ur opening ideas , because some engines misevaluate ..
i.e. rybka is good for sicillian players , komodo evaluates the slav better than stockfish , , stockfish for e4 players.
its b.s. yes , because most GMs today have used one for this purpose .
Online chess is great for learning. OTB chess is great for getting real ratings and prizes.