Look I agree there's nothing wrong with doing it, but the rule is very clear:
In Live Chess, no outside assistance OF ANY KIND is permitted
I agree, but having a real board set up is not assistance. Assistance is help. No one or nothing is helping you choose your chess moves. This is a standard rule on all chess servers. Your interpretation of the rule is incorrect here.
Look I agree there's nothing wrong with doing it, but the rule is very clear:
In Live Chess, no outside assistance OF ANY KIND is permitted
I agree, but having a real board set up is not assistance. Assistance is help. No one or nothing is helping you choose your chess moves. This is a standard rule on all chess servers. Your interpretation of the rule is incorrect here.
I would imagine playing out lots of variations on a real board would assist me a great deal in live chess in the same way that I use the analysis board often for online chess. For blindfold chess geniuses who can visualise all the variations many moves deep in their head then no, it wouldn't be much assistance!
Look I agree there's nothing wrong with doing it, but the rule is very clear:
In Live Chess, no outside assistance OF ANY KIND is permitted
I agree, but having a real board set up is not assistance. Assistance is help. No one or nothing is helping you choose your chess moves. This is a standard rule on all chess servers. Your interpretation of the rule is incorrect here.
I would imagine playing out lots of variations on a real board would assist me a great deal in live chess in the same way that I use the analysis board often for online chess. For blindfold chess geniuses who can visualise all the variations many moves deep in their head then no, it wouldn't be much assistance!
I agree and I specifically mentioned not doing that in my previous post that he replied to.
I use a board for live games too. At first I was doing something that I realized gave me an unfair advantage; I moved the piece on my physical board BEFORE moving the piece in the game. I caught myself once changing my move after moving the physical piece.
So, now, I don't move the physical piece until AFTER I have moved my computer piece.
@Olympian256:
Uh, no. Even though we have some disagreement here as to the letter of the law, everyone here but you agrees that moving pieces around is flat out cheating. Sorry, but your statement is wrong:
And yes , you can have a board and move the pieces around.
Well , 700 years ago million of idiots agreed that the sun goes around the earth.Guess what? They were all wrong.
http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article
according to article 12.3a, the use of another board to analyze a game during play is considered cheating. it is a form of outside help. therefore it is cheating due to the rule against outside help on live chess.
end of story.
p.s. we know they were wrong because some one proved they were. which side of this argument is bringing proof?
i would like to add, it is perfectly legal to eat, drink, etc. in OTB tournaments, as long as you don't do so in a disruptive manner. you could even ask an arbiter if it would be possible to have the heater turned on if you felt it was too cold in a room where the tournament was taking place. if enough people had made the same complaint, guess what? they would turn on the heater!
g-man 15 - That would be a VERY broad interpretation of analyzing on an other board.
And actually, it says another "board". Since the board next to my desk is the only "board" I am not using "another" board, just one.
I get WHY they considered it cheating, I just don't get the actual analogy.
Well it can be argued that it's giving an advantage compared to mental visualisation, it's also true that it's not outside help.
There is no one to tell you what moves to make. No engine, no human, no books.
It's still you and you only that makes the move. The physical board only helps with visualisation, there's no one hiding inside it, it's not giving you any tips or hints about the position.
The ice is thinner than ever.
@rsava, the board on the computer is considered the board on which you are playing in live. the physical board would therefore be outside assistance.
@GnrfFrtzl, it is an advantage which the other player does not nessacerally have. i for example currently lack a physical board of my own (sad i know). there may be players on live that simply cannot get a physical board, making the fact that you use one inately unfair.
It's just weird.
I wouldn't call it cheating. Some people don't have the kind of mental visualisation skills that others do, and using real boards are a great help.
Sure, in an OTB tournament I wouldn't allow it either, but it's definitely not cheating. Only a crutch.(...)
I do not know what chess.com's rules exactly state, but I obey by the OTB rules. Those forbid to play out variations on a side board - part of the game is precisely to think them through in your head.
I do not see evil in allowing a side board if the rules are clear on that point for both players, though. It's just a slightly different game then.
No.
It's just weird.
I wouldn't call it cheating. Some people don't have the kind of mental visualisation skills that others do, and using real boards are a great help.
Sure, in an OTB tournament I wouldn't allow it either, but it's definitely not cheating. Only a crutch.(...)
I do not know what chess.com's rules exactly state, but I obey by the OTB rules. Those forbid to play out variations on a side board - part of the game is precisely to think them through in your head.
I do not see evil in allowing a side board if the rules are clear on that point for both players, though. It's just a slightly different game then.
The rules consider it cheating, I don't argue with that.
I'm arguing that if it's even cheating if there's no actual outside information.
It gives an unfair advantage, therefore it is cheating I would think, since that is usually the definition of cheating.
thanks all to views and opinion... i don't play the variation is just for a couple of motif, such as stressed eyes, mental dificulties of vizualization and so on...
in strict terms " it is not cheating unless it is caught" and there is no way you can be caught using the board.So it is not cheating.
I have played many ppl here and on other sites who openly say " give me a min to set up the board" .
Using a board during live online games is like or should be like believing in God. No boady can force you to belive in God or in a particular God. It is just up to you.
See the thing is that you can be a practical person or you can be a ridiculously idealistic one. If you choose to be a second one please never complain that somebody used the board against you even just for the sake of you own mental peace.
Playing with board will definitely make you a stronger tournament player only if you calculate lines in ur mind and not on board. Now it is up to you if you are too concern about ratings here or actually want to be stronger player. The question of cheating doesn't arise here simply cause it can never be caught.
Disclaimer* Above statement doesn't mean that I use board in my live online games
I use a board for live games too. At first I was doing something that I realized gave me an unfair advantage; I moved the piece on my physical board BEFORE moving the piece in the game. I caught myself once changing my move after moving the physical piece.
So, now, I don't move the physical piece until AFTER I have moved my computer piece.
Looking at the screen for more than an hour can give you sore eyes. Using a real board is a relief.
Moving the pieces...Well, I think as you become a stronger player, it's no longer necessary, because you waste too much time moving the pieces around, and you go much faster moving the pieces with your eyes. Correspondence chess is a different case, since the games are not timed. Take for example Danny Rensch's videos or game analysis: he will tell you something like: "then if I move my queen to d2, then pawn takes, takes, Bishop to g1, castle, and white is much better." It would take him a lot longer if he moved the pieces.
OTB and online for actual physical play. But don't make premoves or don't let go of your piece like in real tournaments. If you are making verification moves and such, I believe that is cheating in Live games. Put it this way, if one player is at an advantage due to making verification moves and not the other, its cheating. If both have the luxury and are in agreement, then its a level playing field.
I only read page one.
I think the rules must be changed, if you are not allowed to testmove on a board when playing livechess.
Because it is not possible to control, and all should have equal rights to tools.
I would never use such board, because my goal is to improve otb, for that reason I need to train my brain to visualize without bordmovingassitance.
OK, can we all pick on Olympian256 now? I'm tired of defending my view; maybe it's not even technically against the rules. Where's Erik when you need him?