Nxf7 ... <sigh not again>
Korchnoi vs Tal
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Mar 17, 2011
0
#3
Korchnoi after his departure from Soviet Union was criticizing everything russian with Kapov, Tal ,Botvinnik on top of the list - I wouldn't take it seriously.
Smyslov also expressed negative views on Tal's playing style, and did Botvinnik too ? His style was different from theirs. In general, it was more creative, although he had his uninspired (or maybe plain medically sick) days too.
Korchnoi was, I believe, one of the least inspiring players to ever reach the top level of chess.
I thought some of Tal's more dynamic games where completely ingenious, involving very deep combinations and tactical twists and turns.
RathHood wrote:
Korchnoi after his departure from Soviet Union was criticizing everything russian with Kapov, Tal ,Botvinnik on top of the list - I wouldn't take it seriously.
I agree in general, Korchnoi didn't earn nickname "Viktor The Terrible" for nothing. But theres probably more to it than that. For example, up through 1968 his lifetime against Tal was +10 -2 =17.
It did fall a bit in his later years (+13 -6 =29), but still impressive.
Mar 17, 2011
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#7
Didn't know about his record against Tal - impressive indeed - still think that he was exaggerating.
Mar 17, 2011
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#8
Korchnoi definitely had Tal's number. Korchnoi would grab pawns, and play moves that looked like they might expose him to an attack, and then Tal would get all excited, and pull out all the stops to go in for the kill. Korchnoi was very good at finding moves that just seemed weak, but would later allow him to build up a counter-attack. Korchnoi was actually a very good tactician although he preferred to use his skills in defence.
Tal talks about Korchnoi's insults in The Life and Games of Mikhail Tal. He says "I knew Korchnoi was capable of saying that which he did not mean."
The young Tal found Botvinnik and Smyslov fairly easy to play against, so in their case, it was just sour grapes. I think Korchnoi may have been gaming with Tal, trying to make him angry, so that he wouldn't play well.
Korchnoi was fully capable of boasting, as he was of whimpering too. When he lost, he must have been under some kind of threat, or his family was threatened, etc.
From Tal's life history I would guess he reached a peak performance just before he became world champion, however in the rematch vs Botvinnik I would guess he had some problems, a) Botvinnik was prepared for very tactical encounters and had studied Tal's games to prevent any little suprises, b) Tal was no longer at his peak performance. c) Perhaps Tal was one example of a World Champion with no more need for the title.
And so in the rematch Botvinnik apparently had a firm understanding about Tal's style, and had prepared a repotoire, however there is no way of knowing whether Tal was at his best or simply playing worse than usual, or whether the anti-tactical strategies would be enough vs Tal at his peak performance.
An initiative seeking, tactical style of chess is typical of the best computer programs, if you read the open source versions they have functions for finding "killer moves" and checkmate's. Clearly a player needs a firm understanding of tactics to play in defense. Clearly Korchnoi had a strong understanding of Tal's style, however what is unclear is how strong Tal's style is when used at maximum performance, in humans and computers.
There is very little similarity between Tal's playing style and computer playing style. You are completely misguided about that. Other than, Tal had a good eye for short term tactics but he often sacrificed material without calculating all the lines in order to seize the initiative. Computers generally look to grab material and don't understand initiative well.
Atos wrote:
Korchnoi was fully capable of boasting, as he was of whimpering too. When he lost, he must have been under some kind of threat, or his family was threatened, etc.
That reminds me of another thing in his book. That tournament in 1962 where Fischer accused Keres, Petrosian, Gellar, and Korchnoi of pre-arranging draws, Korchnoi dismisses it in his book and said he actually wasn't a part of the plot and that his draws were just the result of him having a bad day.
I was browsing through a book in a book store the other day that had a whole section that basically was about Korchnoi's ability to deal calmly with Tal's attacks. I didn't pick the book up (though I wanted to), so I don't remember what book it was. Gambiteer, or Gambiteer II maybe? The author pointed to an early success of Korchnoi's against Tal as sort of being the source of his suspicion that Tal's attacks weren't always solid.
Mar 17, 2011
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#14
fyy0r wrote:
Atos wrote:
Korchnoi was fully capable of boasting, as he was of whimpering too. When he lost, he must have been under some kind of threat, or his family was threatened, etc.
That reminds me of another thing in his book. That tournament in 1962 where Fischer accused Keres, Petrosian, Gellar, and Korchnoi of pre-arranging draws, Korchnoi dismisses it in his book and said he actually wasn't a part of the plot and that his draws were just the result of him having a bad day.
Ofcourse.
As to rematch with Botvinnik I think I read somewhere that he was ill during that event (kidneys or sumthin) and Botvinnik tried to simplify positions very early and lead to endgame where Tal wasn't as good.
Mar 17, 2011
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#15
musicalhair wrote:
I was browsing through a book in a book store the other day that had a whole section that basically was about Korchnoi's ability to deal calmly with Tal's attacks. I didn't pick the book up (though I wanted to), so I don't remember what book it was. Gambiteer, or Gambiteer II maybe? The author pointed to an early success of Korchnoi's against Tal as sort of being the source of his suspicion that Tal's attacks weren't always solid.
The book is Secrets of Attacking Chess by GM Mihail Marin. One of the most interesting books to have come out in a while.
That's the book Rigamagician, thanks for the "assist".
Mar 17, 2011
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#17
fyy0r wrote:
That reminds me of another thing in his book. That tournament in 1962 where Fischer accused Keres, Petrosian, Gellar, and Korchnoi of pre-arranging draws, Korchnoi dismisses it in his book and said he actually wasn't a part of the plot and that his draws were just the result of him having a bad day.
Most of the top players in the 1960's were very prone to short draws. Fischer and Korchnoi were the odd men out, quite happy to play on and on in drawish positions trying to squeeze every last iota of play out of their positions. It was only in the 1970's and 1980's that players like Karpov and Kasparov began to show it was possible to win games even against strong opposition. Even today, there are tons of drawing masters, players like Kramnik and Leko. Korchnoi has always been outspoken in his criticism of grandmaster draws.
Mar 17, 2011
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#18
musicalhair wrote:
That's the book Rigamagician, thanks for the "assist".
My pleasure.
Atos wrote:
There is very little similarity between Tal's playing style and computer playing style. You are completely misguided about that. Other than, Tal had a good eye for short term tactics but he often sacrificed material without calculating all the lines in order to seize the initiative. Computers generally look to grab material and don't understand initiative well.
Maybe that's what he said in his book, but I seriously doubt World Championship level chess was won by often sacrifcing without calculating. Also, Tal had a consistently high score in the Olympiad events.
If you are talking about sacrifices that his opponents refused then consider what would happen if they took the piece, and if there was a possible variation where not taking the gift is better than if they do take.
In fact a computer can sacrifice at ply 15 vs a computer at ply 10 - what should the computer at ply 10 do if a Greek Gift appears?
Has anyone read Korchnoi's book "Chess Is My Life"? There's an interesting point in it relating to his games vs Tal. He claimed to have "figured out" Tal's reckless playing style. He said he told about it in some Russian press release and was heavily criticized for it. I was curious if anyone could dig it up. Here's the relevant quote from the book:
"1957 was the year of Tal's brilliant rise to fame ... I recall my game with him in the 24th Soviet Championship from the fifth round ... I was black, and the game ended in a draw (game 10). Incidentally, it was in this game that I noticed the rather stereotyped way in which Tal conducted his attack. However, Tal won this tournament, and the winner is never criticized! 11 years later I expressed my views in the press, pointing out, against the opinion of the vast majority, the stereotyped nature of Tal's play."
Fascinating. I'd love to read the press release, any of you more hardcore types have it handy? I think it might be a big contributing factor in Korchnoi's extremely lopsided score vs him.