I found 2 with 4 pieces:
MONTIGNY
Neuentdeckte Schachspielgeheiminisse 1802
In Breuer n° 101
Selfmate in 6 (but I dont have the solution)
and
Tivadar KARDOS
Karacsonyi udvözlet 1965
Magyar Sakkelet 3.1966
s#3 (max) Again, I dont have the solution.
I'll have a look, see if I can solve them, and post here.
By the way, the positions you posted are not selfmates.
A selfmate is a chess problem in which white, moving first, must force black to deliver checkmate within a specified number of moves against his will. Selfmates were once known as sui-mates.
And the 1st one I posted seem flawed. Black can never mate White.
Here is a legitimate selfmate, with solution:
Alexandr GRIN
Nepublikovane
s#2
Those are both not selfmates. For the first one, black could never checkmate white, and for the second one, I am 99% sure that white could not force black to checkmate white.
For the first post, the pieces could be switched, so it doesn't really matter.
so,for a selfmate, you actually try to lose? what is the purpose of that? in rooperi's post #3, you actually pass up 1. Ba2 b3 2. Qb3# in order to solve the puzzle.
so,for a selfmate, you actually try to lose? what is the purpose of that? in rooperi's post #3, you actually pass up 1. Ba2 b3 2. Qb3# in order to solve the puzzle.
Well, sort of, but with added stipulations:
In the first puzzle, White is forced to take the queen, resulting in checkmate via the rook on a1. How is this not a self-mate?
In the first puzzle, White is forced to take the queen, resulting in checkmate via the rook on a1. How is this not a self-mate?
Well, in a selfmate Black is supposed to win
2 Kings
1 pawn forced to move up for white with his king stuck in stalemate
2 pieces assisting for black in containing squares forcing white's king in stalemate. I don't think you can only have 1 assisting piece.
so,for a selfmate, you actually try to lose? what is the purpose of that? in rooperi's post #3, you actually pass up 1. Ba2 b3 2. Qb3# in order to solve the puzzle.
Well, sort of, but with added stipulations:
Selfmate - a type of problem where white forces black to mate him against black's will within a specified number of moves. Helpmate - a type of problem where white and black cooperate to put black in mate within a specified number of moves. Unless otherwise specified, black moves first in helpmates. Reflexmate - a selfmate in which both sides must deliver checkmate if they are able to do when it is their move. A problem where this stipulation applies only to black is a semi-reflexmate.sorry, i wasn't clear with my question. i had looked it up to see what it was. my "what's the point" would have probably been better asked as "what do you learn?". perhaps it is just fun, as opposed to most puzzles i am used to which are learning tools.
After I thought about this, I think it's impossible to have a selfmate with only 4 pieces.
Black must have at least 1 piece and a king to checkmate white.
White must have at least 1 piece and a king to force black to checkmate white, unless black has all his pieces blocked by his own pieces. However this would take too many black pieces.
so that equals 4. However such positions are not possible (apparently).
This thread boggles my mind. I suggest the OP to look up some selfmate problems. The examples are #1, not s# (in a selfmate the white king must be mated)
Rooperi the first problem you posted is a s=6 (selfstalemate in 6); the second is a maximummer so black is forced to make the geometrically longest moves
I'll see if I can figure them out in an acceptable time
Ok, the first one isn't so incredibly interesting. White triangulates and then it's soon over. White can start with 1. Kg7 & 1. Kg8 - it doesn't make a difference. OK it was composed in 1802 and back then this type of flaw wasn't too much of an issue. Good that it survived for over 200 years:
The second one is a maximummer which limits black to very few options. This condition allows for a wide range of "geometrical ideas" on the chessboard. The black queen is white's string puppet.
Ehm, now the opening poster still doesn't know what a selfmate is. Here is one. The stipulation is s#1 - white makes the key move, and whatever black does, he has to deliver checkmate on his turn. Remember Black actually does NOT want to mate - he'll do anything to avoid his fate.
@heinzie A selfmate is when white forces black to checkmate white.
For the first problem, black has to checkmate white, not stalemate. Since black could never checkmate white with a lone king, the problem is impossible.
The second problem is not a selfmate be black's moves are not forced. White must force black to checkmate white.
Are selfmates with 4 pieces possible, or is this the minimum?
Are these the only selfmates with 5 pieces or are there more? (This dosent include positions with only minor changes, like flipping the boards or replacing rooks with queens)