New 75 move rule

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jsaepuru

Have any recorded games been ended with draw by the 75 move rule?

chessfreak

You mean 50 move rule.

jsaepuru

No. 75 move rule. Adopted in Tallinn. In force since 1st of July 2014:

9.6
If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:
the same position has appeared, as in 9.2b, for at least five consecutive alternate moves by each player.
any consecutive series of 75 moves have been completed by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture.

Ciak

To avoid misunderstandings: the rule 9.6 is for the arbiter not for the players.

For the players the rule is:

9.2 for same position 3 times

and 9.3 for the 50 moves without pawn movement or any capture!

The rule of 75 moves, or 5 repetitions of position, is made for the referee so that he can declare a draw even if the players have not agreed or didn't know they have done the 50 moves or the 3 times same position (could easily happened in blitz or zeitnot par example).

Martin_Stahl

That rule is for both players and arbiters. Because of that rule (and the 5 move repetition),  the game is automatically drawn when those conditions are met.

Ciak

Probably for the 9.6 you talk for the on line rules, iOTB is not automatic.

With the 9.2 or 9.3 an arbiter can't stop the play for draw, just the players can ask for the draw, have to be agree or to certificate with an arbiter (in on line is evident)obvious the 9.6 can also be for the player but this case means that the rule 9.2 or 9.3 already appears.

Par exemple in order to draw with the rule 9.2 one of the player have to ask for the draw. If he do not, the play continues. The rouling in OTB is important, if you didn't in the correct way the opponent player can ask to continue.

For the 9.6 someone have to be there to certificate. As arbiter it happened to me offen in young tournement, I can assure you that a lot 6 years boys or girls didn't know the rules (alduts too!) and so the game continue even with king vs king alone! In all those cases an arbiter have to stop the game, but if he'is not there or if it's not on-line, when the players do not know or do not agree, how can the play stop for evident draw?

Martin_Stahl

For casual chess, you are right. For rated OTB chess, there has to be a TD/arbiter there and the players are supposed to know the rules.

 

As to online, it could be implemented. Just depends on if it is. I don't know that it has been implemented here.

wilford-n

+1 Ciak. Yes, that rule is for arbiters. Either player can still claim a draw after 50 moves without exchange or pawn advance, as happened in Topalov-Carlsen in round 8 of the London Chess Classic last month. But after 75 moves, the game is drawn automatically; neither player has to claim the draw.

jsaepuru
Ciak wrote:
For the 9.6 someone have to be there to certificate. As arbiter it happened to me offen in young tournement, I can assure you that a lot 6 years boys or girls didn't know the rules (alduts too!) and so the game continue even with king vs king alone! In all those cases an arbiter have to stop the game, but if he'is not there or if it's not on-line, when the players do not know or do not agree, how can the play stop for evident draw?

Yes, but that´s a different rule. "Impossibility of checkmate". One enacted in 1996 or so in its present form:

9.7

The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7.

Under that rule, consider the following simple example:

Do you agree that as per rule 9.7, black has no legal move?

sharcashmo
wilford-n wrote:

+1 Ciak. Yes, that rule is for arbiters. Either player can still claim a draw after 50 moves without exchange or pawn advance, as happened in Topalov-Carlsen in round 8 of the London Chess Classic last month. But after 75 moves, the game is drawn automatically; neither player has to claim the draw.

It's just that. The 50 moves rule is still there, but one player must claim the draw (and it's indeed a bit complicated to do the claim, btw). If none of them claim the draw they can continue the game, but after 75 moves it's the arbitrer who should declare the game as a draw.

Martin_Stahl

In practice the arbiter may make the call but the players should be aware of it too. It isn't any different than stalemate and checkmate. As soon as the position appears on the board, it is drawn. The newer rules are a little more complex, as it has to be shown that the conditions are met but other than that it isn't really different.

jsaepuru

So the rule 9.6b ends:

  1. any consecutive series of75 moves have been completed by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence.

So, what is the result of a game where a checkmate occurs after 75 moves?

Ciak

For the 9.2 or 9.3 the arbiter is not allowed to say anything, he can only look and wait

For the question of jsaepuru, I immagine you ask after  75 no pawn and no capture move (please not say only 75 moves) if you can't certified, par example in blitz without digital board, it's checkmate. In other case when If it's certified, arbiter present, digital board to prove the 75 no pawn and no capture moves or 75 wroten no pawn or no capture moves by both player, it's draw for 9.6.

Martin_Stahl

I really don't know how something like that would be handled. Normally, if a game gets to that situation, there is a very good chance a TD/arbiter will be available watching and will have called it at that time. 

 

My guess is that if checkmate is on the board, it would actually take precedent. Hopefully I never have to worry about it

jsaepuru

7.5 If during a game it is found that an illegal move has been completed, the position immediately before the irregularity shall be reinstated. If the position immediately before the irregularity cannot be determined, the game shall continue from the last identifiable position prior to the irregularity.

What is "during a game"?

5.1      

  1. The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7.

So, suppose a checkmate position is created on board, and the move creating the checkmate position is legal both under Article 3 and Article 4.

Article 4 violations expire on next move:

4.8      

A player forfeits his right to claim against his opponent’s violation of Articles 4.1 – 4.7 once the player touches a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it.

But this does not mean Article 3 violations do.

If, on examination of scoresheets, an earlier move turns out to be illegal under Article 3, does it mean that the game has to resume from the last legal position, taking into account Article 4?

Ciak

"During a game" means "during a game".

In otb tournement once yoo finish the game, signed and gived the scorecard to referee, the game it's not anymore "during a game".

For your question about the illegal move, sorry but the question is not enough clear for me (I'm not very good in english). Anyway you talk about illegal move and is an argument out of thread.

jsaepuru

So what is the position after checkmate position (or a different game-ending position) has been created, but before scorecards have been signed? If on rereading the unsigned scorecards it is apparent that an illegal move has been completed, can players or referee demand that the game should be resumed from the last position before the illegal move?

Also: threefold or fivefold repetition is fairly difficult to check because the positions are not expressly written on scoresheet. Finding 3 or 5 occurrence of the same position among 50 or 75 moves requires recreating the positions for 50 or 75 moves.

Whereas lack of progress is relatively easy to verify - scan 50 or 75 moves on scoresheet for captures or pawn moves.

wilford-n
jsaepuru wrote:

So what is the position after checkmate position (or a different game-ending position) has been created, but before scorecards have been signed? If on rereading the unsigned scorecards it is apparent that an illegal move has been completed, can players or referee demand that the game should be resumed from the last position before the illegal move?

Yes, either player (presumably the one who was checkmated) can demand that the game resume from the position just before the illegal move. There are two things that are unclear to me in this case:

1) What happens to the clocks? Some modern digital clocks can track the time at each move. Are the clocks reset to the time that remained at the time the illegal move was made, or do they continue from wherever they are once the mistake is spotted?

2) If the piece that was moved illegally has a legal move, must that piece be moved by the touch-move rule? (Actually, this one seems easy; I'm sure the answer is "yes." Otherwise, any time a player touched a piece and discovered he didn't want to move it, he could just take the opponent's king with it. Illegal move! Restore the position and move again!)

I actually had this happen in a USCF rated game (a ladder game at my chess club) once, in a Caro-Kann where my opponent was Black. He castled long across on open d-file, but my queen was either on d1 or d2. I didn't notice until about three moves later. When I did notice, he tried to say that it was too late, since more moves had been made. Fortunately, we had an arbiter who knew better. He was rather pissed after the game, because without the illegal castle, I had a forced mate on the board. He refused to play against me again for weeks.

jsaepuru

One nice point is that while loss of a right to castle (of which there are 4) does reset the count of repetition of position, it does not reset the count of moves to progress...

Ciak

In any situation the arbiter stops the clocks and try to understand what happened and will done questions to the players.

He can decide whether to restore the game and how much time to give according and following the rules but also in relation to the best for the tournament.

In the case of an illegal move as you propose after the checkmate, he will wonder why it was not highlighted during the game. It does not seem possible that we aware the illegal move if not analyzing the game, but in this that case the score will have been delivered.

In the situation as you proposed it's easy to think that it is done for a personal convenience and for that reason the arbiter will probably give 0 to both players.