Nigel Short: Women's brains not chess brains - Chess Forums - Page 8

JollyBishop · 2015-04-20T02:07:11-07:00

Oh dear, Nigel, why did you have to go and stir things up? He states that men's and women's brains are hard-wired differently (which is a biological fact), and that this hard-wiring means women aren't suited to chess. I don't know, maybe it's true on a general level, maybe i

batgirl

Apr 20, 2015

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#141

ProfessorProfesesen wrote:

That means you have more chances of being killed by a Nigel Short than a Polgar... :)

Only if you die laughing.

batgirl

Apr 20, 2015

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#142

NewArdweaden wrote:

They're all weak, all women. They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know. They're like beginners. They lose every single game against a man. There isn't a woman player in the world I can't give knight-odds to and still beat.

Ok, now this is sexist.

It was also a very different time, a time when this might have been the common feeling. In fact, he probably wasn't far wrong concerning most female players of that time...maybe not a Knight against the few strongest, but possibly Pawn & move. I find Short's suggestions more sleazy since he should, and probably does, know better. He's just insipid about it.

Frederitch

Apr 20, 2015

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#143

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-monday-edition-1.3040660/first-female-grandmaster-attacks-idea-that-women-aren-t-hardwired-for-chess-1.3041069

trysts

Apr 20, 2015

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#144

Frederitch wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-monday-edition-1.3040660/first-female-grandmaster-attacks-idea-that-women-aren-t-hardwired-for-chess-1.3041069

Ha!

"I think he has something personal going on here," Susan Polgar says with a laugh. "He can not accept the fact that he is not doing that great against the Polgar sisters."

Exactly!

Knightly_News

Apr 20, 2015

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#145

batgirl wrote:

NewArdweaden wrote:

They're all weak, all women. They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know. They're like beginners. They lose every single game against a man. There isn't a woman player in the world I can't give knight-odds to and still beat.

Ok, now this is sexist.

It was also a very different time, a time when this might have been the common feeling. In fact, he probably wasn't far wrong concerning most female players of that time...maybe not a Knight against the few strongest, but possibly Pawn & move. I find Short's suggestions more sleazy since he should, and probably does, know better. He's just insipid about it.

The common feeling is that women were "stupid" compared to men? I don't think I'd have that feeling, whether popular in an era, or not. It's just an ugly narrowminded view. I don't think the evidence, from my interactions with women, supports that in the least. But it's not surprising that for all his obssession with chess, Fischer blundered elsewhere.

Einstein was more rounded:

http://www.inquisitr.com/1330198/albert-einsteins-views-about-females-in-science-are-timeless-heres-how-he-chose-to-express-them/

JollyBishop

Apr 20, 2015

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#146

Frederitch wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-monday-edition-1.3040660/first-female-grandmaster-attacks-idea-that-women-aren-t-hardwired-for-chess-1.3041069

Excellent. Thanks for posting this. Judit says exactly what I said earlier in the thread. Girls are discouraged from playing chess in the family. That's where it starts. Perhaps discouraged is the wrong word. More a case of not actively being ENcouraged.

batgirl

Apr 20, 2015

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#147

Frederitch wrote:

/first-female-grandmaster-attacks-idea-that-women-aren-t-hardwired-for-chess-1.3041069

Technically, Susan wasn't the first female GM. That would have been Nona Gaprindashvili. She was, however, the first to earn the title in the traditional way.

Frederitch

Apr 20, 2015

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#148

You're welcome.

Greasedlightnin

Apr 20, 2015

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#149

Short is sleazy and proud of it!

batgirl

Apr 20, 2015

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#150

now_and_zen wrote:

The common feeling is that women were "stupid" compared to men?

I think that was a commonly held belief at least into the 1960s-70sm though, of course, not a universally held belief. At one time slavery was considered not only justified, but ordained by G_d. People today may be appalled by the idea, but had these same people lived back then and in that culture, they would have more than likely subscribed to that concept. People are pretty much products of their times.

NewArdweaden

Apr 20, 2015

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#151

WhoIsHe17 wrote:

NewArdweaden wrote:

I searched FIDE and they have 442 842 rated males and 62 165 rated females. With that ratio there should be 6 women rated 2700+, since there are 43 such men. However, there are none.

There are more than 109 male players rated 2650+. Statistically, there should be 15 women with that rating. There are only 2.

Wow way to pull a 3 dimensional analysis out of 2 dimensions of data... Does it say how many hours they each studied? What if female chess players don't make it to 2700+ because they would have to live too much of an unbalanced life secluded from family and friends to get there. Males are better at shutting friends and family off to go somewhere quiet and study for hours.

Oh, so there are such differences between males and females? I didn't know so many 2700+ grandmasters didn't care for their family.

Furthermore, I don't think you would live a terribly "unbalanced life secluded from family". If anything, chess is far more friendly to players with families than other sports - where women doesn't seem to have any troubles competing.

NewArdweaden

Apr 20, 2015

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#152

batgirl wrote:

NewArdweaden wrote:

I searched FIDE and they have 442 842 rated males and 62 165 rated females. With that ratio there should be 6 women rated 2700+, since there are 43 such men. However, there are none.

There are more than 109 male players rated 2650+. Statistically, there should be 15 women with that rating. There are only 2.

Arithmetically, maybe but I'm not sure statisitics necessary work in such a straight line fashion.

That is absolutely true.

Greasedlightnin

Apr 20, 2015

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#153

Now if George Clooney was also a chessplayer! things would be different.

Knightly_News

Apr 20, 2015

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#154

frankiegoestovegas wrote:

Now if George Clooney was also a chessplayer! things would be different.

Talk about women losing games, it would almost be like they weren't even really trying to win.

onthehouse

Apr 20, 2015

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#155

It is undeniable there are currently more men with higher chess ratings. Also undeniable is there are currently more women with higher chess ratings than there were twenty years ago.

Projecting this trend into the future one could foresee an era arriving when an equal number of male and females chess players of high rating exists.

Furthermore, the possibility of high rated female players outnumbering high rated male players is not out of the question. Time will tell.

Current statistics are historical in nature and does not foretell the future possibilities.

scythe_makes_right

Apr 20, 2015

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#156

SmyslovFan wrote:

Trysts, I agree that there is sexism in chess. Several of my female students have told me horror stories of how they have been treated by males in various tournaments.

That doesn't change the biological issue. I've seen statistics that claim that 96% of the difference between men and women can be accounted for by cultural and statistical realities (including the fact that far more men play competitive chess than women).* That still leaves 4% to biological factors, which is important when discussing the very top of the pyramid, to biological factors.

And again, I'm only talking about the very highest levels of chess. My female students perform about as well as my male students after the same amount of lessons. There will probably be a woman who is world champion of all chess players at some point. That doesn't disprove the point that there are real physical differences that make the task harder for women.

I'll look for Polgar's quote in response to Kasparov about a decade ago where she agreed that there are biological differences between men and women that make it harder for women to succeed.

Basically, the physical differences between men and women are real, but not sufficient to claim that women can't play chess as well as men in general. Those differences are enough to suggest that even in a perfectly unbiased culture women would still have more difficulty than men in becoming world champion.

_____________

*http://phys.org/news150954140.html

Reason strikes again!

scythe_makes_right

Apr 20, 2015

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#157

Murphy70 wrote:

There is far to much sexism in chess as it is without Short sticking his oar in, even FIDE is sexist by allowing women to get titles with lower grades than men. They should compete on the same level for titles IMHO, then we can say chess is fair to everyone.

EDIT: I misread your comment. My apologies. Lowering the requirements for chess *titles* isn't necessarily a good idea. My response dealt with seperate competitions for men and women.

I wouldn't be opposed to women regularly playing against men if that's what they want to do. But calling the current division sexist is laughable. Regardless of the cause(s) of female chess players competing at a lower level than men right now, the fact is they do. So, if women have no problem getting crushed for a while, let 'em compete against the men.

Until that system agreed upon by female players, the current system where men and women generally compete seperately--but the Judit Polgars and Hou Yifans of the world can often/exclusively compete with men--makes sense.

casual_chess_yo

Apr 20, 2015

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#158

onthehouse wrote:

It is undeniable there are currently more men with higher chess ratings. Also undeniable is there are currently more women with higher chess ratings than there were twenty years ago.

Projecting this trend into the future one could foresee an era arriving when an equal number of male and females chess players of high rating exists.

Furthermore, the possibility of high rated female players outnumbering high rated male players is not out of the question. Time will tell.

Current statistics are historical in nature and does not foretell the future possibilities.

um yes that is completely out of the question, moron

scythe_makes_right

Apr 20, 2015

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#159

The_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

biteme62 wrote:

NIGEL SHORT IS FULL SHIT!!!!! AND VERY SEXIST!!!!!!

Can't you switch the letters in his name a'O to spell Honest Girl ?....just saying....

....and thanks 4 the defense biter........

Mind blown!

fourpawnskewer

Apr 20, 2015

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#160

casual_chess_yo wrote:

onthehouse wrote:

It is undeniable there are currently more men with higher chess ratings. Also undeniable is there are currently more women with higher chess ratings than there were twenty years ago.

Projecting this trend into the future one could foresee an era arriving when an equal number of male and females chess players of high rating exists.

Furthermore, the possibility of high rated female players outnumbering high rated male players is not out of the question. Time will tell.

Current statistics are historical in nature and does not foretell the future possibilities.

um yes that is completely out of the question, moron

I'm going to quote you as an example of the blatant sexism that goes on. I see women in chess be mistreated all the time. My sister has tried to play chess and been a victim of chess sexism. Short's comments, while partly biologically true, are part of the chess culture that women are not as good at chess as men. Many women don't like the game nearly as much, which accounts for much of it. Although men and women are different, saying that women are worse at chess than men when the only evidence we have are that there are "differences" between women and men is going too far. There are other factors (like sexism!) which discourage women from playing chess.

EDIT: Specifically what irks me is the tireless comments on appearance. For the US open men's division there were no appearance comments, but for the women's (especially the live feed) there were endless comments "her legs are great" "she is so pretty" "look at those titties" along with other inappropriate and simply horrible comments. The women's world championship was also bad with this, with many bigots commenting about the women's rating and their "different" playing style. Simply appalling.