Noone follows the principles on my level

Sort:
dandan123123

Bullet > Everything else

TitanCG
DrCheckevertim wrote:
I_Am_Second wrote:

"For better or worse, tactics trump principles."

 

This is the kind of beginner crap...mini tal advice beginners love to throw out.  Tactics are simply one part of chess, just like strategy is.  They both need ot be learned to improve. 

It's all a matter of context. I believe Heisman, a great proponent of beginner principles, has said something like: "If a tactic is present, it trumps principles."

Not that a beginner shouldn't follow principles -- but if you lose (or win) a piece, which happens quite a bit at that level -- the whole point of "principles" quickly becomes moot.

Indeed. Unfortunately the quoter left out the sentence directly after that provided context. 

I never said that a player could hack all day. But if a player is unable to handle tactics then all their positional trumps become irrelevant. What good is a knight on d5 or play on the dark squares if your king is getting mated? It is no good!

Some players like to quote Nimzowitch's idea that a move that is positionally well founded can halt an unsound attack. Unfortunately that situation will not occur in every game, every time you're being attacked. Sometimes tactics can only be met with tactics regardless of how good your position is. 

Whether the tactics are sound is not the point. The point is that proving this is not always a matter of playing some Karpovian move that stops everything. So until a player can handle tactics to some degree, all this stuff about principles won't be as important. That doesn't infer that they are useless and obviously the better a player gets the more the important strategy will become. Perhaps it is simply semantics but it shouldn't be ignored imo. 

JG27Pyth

Slow time control chess, taken seriously, where you really work your way thru a position and struggle to come up with the best move you can possibly find builds chess ability. 

Blitz and bullet are fun but generally don't grow skills... low level Bullet is hardly even chess, it's more like Hungry Hungry Hippos with clocks.  

johnyoudell

The advice to play longer time limits is good.

You have been taught some excellent principles but knowing the theory is not the same thing as understanding the practice.

When you see your opponent violate the opening principles, as for example bringing their queen out early, you need to look at the concrete position on the board and work out exactly how you are abe to take advantage of their mistake.

Of course that is where playing a longer time limit is relevant. If you have one or two seconds available you need to think very quickly indeed and lack of experience means you won't succeed. If you have an hour available you may well work out a plan to take advantage of the mistake.

What you look for, when your opponent brings their queen out early, are moves which counter whatever threat the queen poses but also develop your pieces - often moves which attack their queen and gain you a tempo because they have to move the queen.

If you have talent for the game, such moves suggest themselves readily. If you, like most of us, rely on experience rather than talent, it takes a while to get the hang of this.

Similarly with other moves by your opponent which violate the opening principles - moving pawns rather than pieces, moving pieces twice and so on.

What you have learned is not wasted. It will just take you a while to digest it.

cosmicharmonic
WarCrazy
JG27Pyth wrote:

Slow time control chess, taken seriously, where you really work your way thru a position and struggle to come up with the best move you can possibly find builds chess ability. 

Blitz and bullet are fun but generally don't grow skills... low level Bullet is hardly even chess, it's more like Hungry Hungry Hippos with clocks.  

I love how it frustrates the blitz and bullet kiddies to know that they're damaging their chess progress by sitting at the screen for HOURS a day slamming on their mouse and playing 1/0 and 3/0 until their eyes bleed. 

Blitz and bullet really should be outlawed. It's not chess. 

csalami10
zolika00 írta:
Jimmykay wrote:

People should take a look at the OP's profile...he is playing nothing but blitz and bullet.

I am playing blitz (5|2) usually.

The only time I am playing bullet is when I am having fun and I do not care. I am not even remotely serious when I play bullet.

Btw is there a problem with playing blitz?

There is. When you play blitz games, you don't play full chess games. You don't have time to think about the position, you don't have time to compose a plan, you don't have time to play the endgame well. The principles you have learnt work better in long games. You say that your opponents break those principles. They can do it, because you don't have time to figure out how to punish those mistakes or simply just get a better position.
Blitz is almost the opposite of long-time control chess. 

Mika_Rao

I sometimes face the same problem, (just not at the beginner level).  My opponent plays moves that are obviously "incorrect" but when it comes time to find concrete punishment, I miss the critical position, I'm not up to the tactics, or I'm too scared to sacrifice.

Believe me, when you follow opening principals while they're going nuts, you have the better position... you just don't know what to do with it.  And actually, at your level, you're basically losing for the same reasons I do... you're missing tactics or not calculating well.  I looked at your 3 most recent losses and you're making basic tactical mistakes like moving a pawn where it can be captured and it's unprotected.  In one game your rook is threatened and you don't defend or move it.  Some missed patterns where you trap your own piece or otherwise give your opponent a tactic.

How to fix?  Opening principals are a nice outline to have in your memory, but during the game your conscious thought should be ~90% looking at forcing moves.  Especially "if I move here, is it safe against his forcing moves" and also checking to see if your forcing moves win something.

This is especially hard in speed games (more like impossible for beginners).  Play longer games, and build some good calculation/observational habits.  The more you force yourself to look for forcing moves and tactics, the better, faster, and more easily you'll be able to find them in future games (and then you can devote more conscious thought to strategy).

Forcing moves are checks, captures, and threats.

 




Mika_Rao

Unfortunately for most players, they break rules out of desperation or ignorance, and if they were experienced / tactically competent enough to find moves that followed general guidelines then they'd be a much stronger players.

TheGreatOogieBoogie

I cooked today and it's the Sabbath.  Wait, you don't mean those rules ^_^

odisea777
Jimmykay wrote:

People should take a look at the OP's profile...he is playing nothing but blitz and bullet.

You are correct. He's never going to get away from this B.S. if that's all he plays.

cosmicharmonic

Blitz is def fun, no question, but it is truly a trashy way to develop understanding.  One learns the most about positions from correspondence chess, where you can analyze a position for three days straight (print out the position and carry it with you all day), finding every nuance and detail (looking at, for example, all 34-41 move choices!, things you normally would not even remotely consider!) and developing incredible long range plans you don't even know you have in you.  It is the ultimate way to apply all (and lord we all know how massive is the information) you have learned to a particular situation to see what "principles" are true, which are not, and which are nebulous.  CC is a way to put emotions aside and be aloof to your competitor, and if objectivity toward a position is best, this way helps you understand positions deeply, accurately, and instantly that will arise when you later play blitz.  In blitz we see a few moves that are possible, but in fact there are so many moves possible that over the course of a game, we've missed dozens of good ones. 

Some moves look amazing at first are not, and waking up to a brand new day reveals their transperancy.  A second full day and a new morning reveals even more insight.  The greatest works of art are created in CC, lord you'll find you've got a poet inside you yet.   

JG27Pyth

delete...

I somehow weirdly posted an old draft that I had completely rewritten. Ahhh internet, you scamp. 

At any rate: 

@cozmicharmonic. I've given that same true believer CC speech. Chess.com seems to be divided between folks like you and me and I think Mark, who think CC is the greatest way to play chess... and the CC haters who think the analysis board and databases somehow render CC skill free. 

About Opening principles and chess principles in general. 

I don't think principles are primarily intended to be "followed" so that you will win the chess game you are playing. I think they encourage you to think about chess positions in ways that are non-obvious at first but which hopefully become second nature (and which should lead to more wins.)  Principles can also point to flaws in your thinking when reviewing a game -- places where a faulty idea led you down dark alleys you should have avoided.  

Chessgrandmaster2001
zolika00 wrote:

I have this problem that I've been playing very actively for at least a month an a half. I've watched a whole bunch of DVDs, read a couple books and solved tactical positions at least an hour every day.

But it just feels useless. Every beginner DVD starts with explaining the basic principles such as controlling the center, developing minor pieces first and the importance of castling.

Lately I've also given some time studying d4 openings for white. Which also seems like a waste of time and I am about to tell you why.

My problem is that on my level of play noone follows these. Players get their queen out early. They start trading their bishops for knights (which is not supposed to be a good thing). They move their minor pieces more than once. etc.

Yet I who follows the principles usually loses.

Openings is another useless thing, because people don't really follow those either. 

So can you give me some tips on what should I focus on? Or how can I take advantage of my opponent not following the principles?

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Well, of course, it is great if you follow the principles, but you should know how to thrash your opponent for not following by starting an attack. 

Pose1don

OP posted on my profile that I am an engine user.  OP I started playing chess this year so I am going through the same growth pains as you, and I assure you I've never used engines during a game.  What has helped me is studying until I feel inspired, then I play a few games, then study some more.  When I study I split my time between reviewing my games, opening theory, and random chess videos (usually I watch famous games for inspiration).

As for opening principals, I always take notice when my opponent breaks princeples.  If I can get a lead in development or better control over the center, I know I am going to have a chance to win the game.  The key is to not get overexcited, and just try to make solid moves until you get your opportunity to take advantage.

On tactics:  Tactics rule when they work, but when they fail you end up with a scattered position and you lose shortly thereafter.  The key is to try them anyway, and then second guess yourself in analysis afterwards.  You will never hone your instincts unless you try the tactics you think you see.  Most people will tell you don't make your move until you see the combination.  They're wrong of course if they were right there would be no such thing as "principles" and chess be 100% calculation, which it is not. 

My credentials: I started 8 or 9 months ago and anyone can look at my games to see how bad I was then.  I was playing around the 700 level I suppose.  I thought people at 1000 were really good.  Now I'm 1200+ and no plateau in sight.  I'm 27 year old so my mind doesnt have the plasticity that it used to, and I think my improvement is remarkable.  Enough to keep me inspired anyway.

I hope you keep playing and improving and and maybe we will meet again one day.

TurboFish
Pose1don wrote:

OP posted on my profile that I am an engine user.  OP I started playing chess this year so I am going through the same growth pains as you, and I assure you I've never used engines during a game.  What has helped me is studying until I feel inspired, then I play a few games, then study some more.  When I study I split my time between reviewing my games, opening theory, and random chess videos (usually I watch famous games for inspiration).

As for opening principals, I always take notice when my opponent breaks princeples.  If I can get a lead in development or better control over the center, I know I am going to have a chance to win the game.  The key is to not get overexcited, and just try to make solid moves until you get your opportunity to take advantage.

On tactics:  Tactics rule when they work, but when they fail you end up with a scattered position and you lose shortly thereafter.  The key is to try them anyway, and then second guess yourself in analysis afterwards.  You will never hone your instincts unless you try the tactics you think you see.  Most people will tell you don't make your move until you see the combination.  They're wrong of course if they were right there would be no such thing as "principles" and chess be 100% calculation, which it is not. 

My credentials: I started 8 or 9 months ago and anyone can look at my games to see how bad I was then.  I was playing around the 700 level I suppose.  I thought people at 1000 were really good.  Now I'm 1200+ and no plateau in sight.  I'm 27 year old so my mind doesnt have the plasticity that it used to, and I think my improvement is remarkable.  Enough to keep me inspired anyway.

I hope you keep playing and improving and and maybe we will meet again one day.

I'm glad to see your good advice above (and that of johnyyoudell, cosmicharmonic, csalami10, and Mika_Rao).  I concur with the advice of slowing down, and really contemplating a concrete position, as we do in correspondence chess.

This sentence gave me a chuckle:

"I'm 27 year old so my mind doesnt have the plasticity that it used to..."

Yikes!  I'm 54 years old -- twice your age -- so I guess I have even less brain plasticity left Surprised  Good thing that the accumulated experience of a geezer like me can apparently compensate for a fossilized brain!  My chess is somehow still improving Laughing

hapless_fool

The Chess Mentor on this site features a series called "How to punish an opponent when he breaks opening principles" or something like that. I've gone through it twice, and intend to go through it one or two more times. The key is to know how to exploit weakness. Knowing that a weakness exists isn't enough.

justus_jep

I also noticed that some people who play strange moves actually prepared them and they play very fast. Those guys are deadly. Laughing 

cornbeefhashvili

Learn to crawl before you walk.

Learn to walk before you run.

Niranja18

Even i had this problem before you should know the meaning of the book openings and knowing 4 openings is enough for both black and white at this stage if opponent gets his queen straightaway you for the principles you have taught by chasing the queen and Importantly you should keep calm and play long games like 30 45|45 and look for tactics every move and play slowly. After the game think how many variations you have calculated in the whole game they learn some stratigic concepts that will help you!!! Al the best...