Occam's Razor Supports that Hans Niemann did not cheat against Magnus, or in OTB in general.

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Avatar of CrusaderKing1
MorningGlory84 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
MorningGlory84 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
rookNoob1982 wrote:

The fact is the only reason Magnus said what he said was to prevent Hans from competing. That’s the only reason. So Magnus did intentionally intend to destroy Hans career. So this lawsuit seems perfectly reasonable to me and I hope Hans wins.

That just doesn't make any sense. And it would be impossible to prove. The ONLY reason Magnus wouldn't want Hans to complete is if Hans is suspected of cheating. Hans, being an admitted cheater, is going to be open to suspicion of cheating. 

You can't say it's a "fact" that your belief is a reason Magnus said what he said. Magnus has openly said he wants more anti cheating measures. If Hans finds his career in trouble it might have less to do with those who are against cheating, and more to do with Hans himself cheating. 

I don't know why you even dignify such comments with response. He probably writes 'FACT' at the end of his opinion online regularly.

You are probably right. But to me it's interesting. My neighbor is currently in a lawsuit and things like intent, and facts, matter. He was outside watering his flowers. His next door neighbor (who is VERY adversarial) approached him. So he sprayed him with the garden hose. Now his neighbor is suing for damage to his eye, mental distress, ptsd, etc. What are the facts, what was the intent (by both). 

In the case of Hans, to paraphrase Pawn I believe it is, I think Hans is an idiot. Everyone he is suing has deeper pockets and better lawyers. Not only does this make Hans look bad, what he's doing actually DOES have the potential to ruin his career. If would have just admitted his past mistakes, been a little more humble, he could probably move on to a good career. Now he has chess tournament organizers thinking twice about inviting someone who is sue happy. 

It's in little ways like this that I am reminded how different the US is to the UK. I've always found this litigiousness bemusing.

Hans doesn't need to pursue this avenue at all, no tournaments have banned him yet, so if he's as good as he think he is we will see him crowned world champion before long. Right?

I could be wrong, but I think the document states he isn't allowed to play in Tata Steel, and some other tournaments. If this is true, it strengthens his stance that Magnus is hurting his career. 

 

Also, if he's as good as he thinks he is, he will be playing about 2650-2700, which is what he has been playing generally. 

I think he knows he isn't a consistent 2800 level player yet, as indicated by his interviews. But he does seem to confirm that he believes he's at least 2650-2700 by talking about his current record of play.

Avatar of MorningGlory84
Elroch wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Saying that because he cheated on chess.com, that they are able to say he cheated OTB isn't legally acceptable.

So, we are instructed to believe that some unnamed person said that because Niemann cheated on chess.com, some other unnamed persons (or many be the same person?) has the capability to say (doesn't that just mean having a functional tongue and vocal chords?) that he cheated OTB "isn't legally acceptable".

How about now identifying who the unnamed persons are and then showing where they claimed Niemann cheated OTB and then exhibiting the legal qualifications for the last part?

Just kidding - some posts are simply full of sloppy nonsense.

The guy has no idea what he's typing or even defending at this point. Probably mostly about his ego.

Avatar of CrusaderKing1
MorningGlory84 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Saying that because he cheated on chess.com, that they are able to say he cheated OTB isn't legally acceptable.

So, we are instructed to believe that some unnamed person said that because Niemann cheated on chess.com, some other unnamed persons (or many be the same person?) has the capability to say (doesn't that just mean having a functional tongue and vocal chords?) that he cheated OTB "isn't legally acceptable".

How about now identifying who the unnamed persons are and then showing where they claimed Niemann cheated OTB and then exhibiting the legal qualifications for the last part?

Just kidding - some posts are simply full of sloppy nonsense.

The guy has no idea what he's typing or even defending at this point. Probably mostly about his ego.

I'm defending the basic human right of "innocent until proven guilty".

 

Avatar of MorningGlory84

The kid's just cashing in on his 15 minutes.

Avatar of MorningGlory84
CrusaderKing1 wrote:
MorningGlory84 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Saying that because he cheated on chess.com, that they are able to say he cheated OTB isn't legally acceptable.

So, we are instructed to believe that some unnamed person said that because Niemann cheated on chess.com, some other unnamed persons (or many be the same person?) has the capability to say (doesn't that just mean having a functional tongue and vocal chords?) that he cheated OTB "isn't legally acceptable".

How about now identifying who the unnamed persons are and then showing where they claimed Niemann cheated OTB and then exhibiting the legal qualifications for the last part?

Just kidding - some posts are simply full of sloppy nonsense.

The guy has no idea what he's typing or even defending at this point. Probably mostly about his ego.

I'm defending the basic human right of "innocent until proven guilty".

 

Is that a "basic human right"? In which international convention is that precise "right" enshrined?

Even if it is in the UN declaration (or equivalent) I am pretty sure it wouldn't apply to civil proceedings with what amounts to name calling. So again, you're typing utter nonsense which you think sounds convincing rather than just climb down from this pointless position you are defending.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
CrusaderKing1 wrote:
MorningGlory84 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Saying that because he cheated on chess.com, that they are able to say he cheated OTB isn't legally acceptable.

So, we are instructed to believe that some unnamed person said that because Niemann cheated on chess.com, some other unnamed persons (or many be the same person?) has the capability to say (doesn't that just mean having a functional tongue and vocal chords?) that he cheated OTB "isn't legally acceptable".

How about now identifying who the unnamed persons are and then showing where they claimed Niemann cheated OTB and then exhibiting the legal qualifications for the last part?

Just kidding - some posts are simply full of sloppy nonsense.

The guy has no idea what he's typing or even defending at this point. Probably mostly about his ego.

I'm defending the basic human right of "innocent until proven guilty".

 

But proving Magnus and chess.com guilty is going to be very difficult. It's good that you agree they are innocent until proven guilty. But don't you also agree that proving that guilt is going to be very difficult given Hans own admissions to cheating? 

And don't you think that suing may not be too wise, since he's suing people and institutions that are VERY popular? If you ran a tournament, and you knew the controversy surrounding Hans, wouldn't you think twice about inviting him? And what if you knew other, better players, may skip your event if they knew Hans would show up? 

He brought this on himself. I can't think of ONE single person who would hint or insinuate Hans cheated, if he never did cheat. 

Avatar of CrusaderKing1
MorningGlory84 wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:
MorningGlory84 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Saying that because he cheated on chess.com, that they are able to say he cheated OTB isn't legally acceptable.

So, we are instructed to believe that some unnamed person said that because Niemann cheated on chess.com, some other unnamed persons (or many be the same person?) has the capability to say (doesn't that just mean having a functional tongue and vocal chords?) that he cheated OTB "isn't legally acceptable".

How about now identifying who the unnamed persons are and then showing where they claimed Niemann cheated OTB and then exhibiting the legal qualifications for the last part?

Just kidding - some posts are simply full of sloppy nonsense.

The guy has no idea what he's typing or even defending at this point. Probably mostly about his ego.

I'm defending the basic human right of "innocent until proven guilty".

 

Is that a "basic human right"? In which international convention is that precise "right" enshrined?

Even if it is in the UN declaration (or equivalent) I am pretty sure it wouldn't apply to civil proceedings with what amounts to name calling. So again, you're typing utter nonsense which you think sounds convincing rather than just climb down from this pointless position you are defending.

I'm not sure what the wisest thing Hans should do is.

On one hand suing these chess institutions and personalities can't help his career significantly per se.

However, on the other hand, he really doesn't have many good choices based on the circumstances. 

If he didn't cheat, then he has all the right in the world to pursue this avenue. 

 

It's certainly a conundrum, where any action you take might be hurtful, so to find the least hurtful avenue is the priority.

If Hans didn't cheat, then he's probably taking the best avenue you can. It's unfortunate he has to sue top personalities, but the defaming, libel, etc. was fairly significant and he was backed into a corner.

If the lawsuit works out in Hans favor even a little bit, it could clear his name and he can resume his chess career.

If his lawsuit doesn't work out, then it probably isn't any worse than what Magnus is already doing to him, destroying his chess career either way. 

Avatar of MorningGlory84

No crime has been committed either way. You don't have the "human right" to act poorly as a teenager and then never have that behaviour raised again. This is more akin to being deplatformed because of past Twitter posts. It may be unfair, but no human rights have been breached.

Avatar of MorningGlory84

Hans can't "clear his name" of the cheating he himself has admitted to. He compromised himself from the beginning and will just have to live with it. If he knuckles down, learns some humility (assuming he doesn't have a personality disorder which makes that impossible like Lance Armstrong for example) and keeps winning then he can still have a lucrative career.

Avatar of CrusaderKing1
lfPatriotGames wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:
MorningGlory84 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Saying that because he cheated on chess.com, that they are able to say he cheated OTB isn't legally acceptable.

So, we are instructed to believe that some unnamed person said that because Niemann cheated on chess.com, some other unnamed persons (or many be the same person?) has the capability to say (doesn't that just mean having a functional tongue and vocal chords?) that he cheated OTB "isn't legally acceptable".

How about now identifying who the unnamed persons are and then showing where they claimed Niemann cheated OTB and then exhibiting the legal qualifications for the last part?

Just kidding - some posts are simply full of sloppy nonsense.

The guy has no idea what he's typing or even defending at this point. Probably mostly about his ego.

I'm defending the basic human right of "innocent until proven guilty".

 

But proving Magnus and chess.com guilty is going to be very difficult. It's good that you agree they are innocent until proven guilty. But don't you also agree that proving that guilt is going to be very difficult given Hans own admissions to cheating? 

And don't you think that suing may not be too wise, since he's suing people and institutions that are VERY popular? If you ran a tournament, and you knew the controversy surrounding Hans, wouldn't you think twice about inviting him? And what if you knew other, better players, may skip your event if they knew Hans would show up? 

He brought this on himself. I can't think of ONE single person who would hint or insinuate Hans cheated, if he never did cheat. 

I'm not sure proving Magnus is guilty via causing his chess career opportunities to plummet is difficult at all. It should actually be his easiest argument. There is a plethora of evidence Magnus negatively affected his chess career with either blatant or inferred accusations that Hans cheated OTB.

Magnus really can't do this legally without any strong evidence or proof, and since it can be easily argued Magnus then affected Hans chess career negatively, I see a reasonable case.

However, chess.com is different. Chess.com never said Hans cheated OTB, or really even inferred it. They are a private website that can ban people for no reason at all. So I'm not sure what his case would really be here.

 

Avatar of CrusaderKing1
MorningGlory84 wrote:

Hans can't "clear his name" of the cheating he himself has admitted to. He compromised himself from the beginning and will just have to live with it. If he knuckles down, learns some humility (assuming he doesn't have a personality disorder which makes that impossible like Lance Armstrong for example) and keeps winning then he can still have a lucrative career.

He can't clear his name from past online cheating, but he can certainly clear his name of OTB cheating because he stated he didn't do it, and continues to play at his expected level even with increased security. 

 

Avatar of cokezerochess22

King I don't like the way magnus created this drama but this suite is a joke.  Hans is the one suing so the innocent until proven guilty one since its an American courts is magnus and co hans is the one who has to prove they intended to damage his career and KNEW he was not cheating.  The worst part is the man had already won if anything more people know this guy than ever before you cant prove magnus intended to end his career he never said that ever. In fact it seems more likely to me he just didn't give a crap about hans or his career at all and was indifferent to the impact it had on him he wanted to crack down on cheating.  Either way Hans is the one sueing its on him to prove things he cannot prove now.  Also if you go read his suite there are some childish rants that make no sense inside its just a narcissistic kids from generation meme with lawyers who know "lol we get paid either way".  This was a bad move and I have a feeling magnus and co are not gonna be super nice and just let him drop it with what a pain in he butt he is being about all of this. He didn't need to apologize he didn't need to confess publicly for Danny all  the kid had to do was nothing and he was golden but he just has not yet learned in life when its best to keep ones mouth shut.  

Avatar of MorningGlory84

Magnus will likely do nothing. In the event this frivolous lawsuit is not thrown out of court then the most that could happen would be him being served papers. He can stop visiting the US if he becomes sufficiently concerned but the likelihood of things going that far are very low.

Avatar of PawnTsunami
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

If Hans didn't cheat, then he's probably taking the best avenue you can. It's unfortunate he has to sue top personalities, but the defaming, libel, etc. was fairly significant and he was backed into a corner.

Review the Lance Armstrong case.  The similarities are striking.

CrusaderKing1 wrote:

If the lawsuit works out in Hans favor even a little bit, it could clear his name and he can resume his chess career.

Time will tell, but honestly I think this effectively kills his chess career either way.  If he loses the case, people will view it as a vindication of thinking he has been cheating.  If he wins, no organizer/player will want to go near him for fear of being sued if they even hint that something was up with his play.

But that aside, I would suggest you stop trying to argue in Hans' favor until you read the actual filing.  To say it is not the work of a legal scholar is an understatement.

Avatar of Optimissed
lfPatriotGames wrote:
MorningGlory84 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
rookNoob1982 wrote:

The fact is the only reason Magnus said what he said was to prevent Hans from competing. That’s the only reason. So Magnus did intentionally intend to destroy Hans career. So this lawsuit seems perfectly reasonable to me and I hope Hans wins.

That just doesn't make any sense. And it would be impossible to prove. The ONLY reason Magnus wouldn't want Hans to complete is if Hans is suspected of cheating. Hans, being an admitted cheater, is going to be open to suspicion of cheating. 

You can't say it's a "fact" that your belief is a reason Magnus said what he said. Magnus has openly said he wants more anti cheating measures. If Hans finds his career in trouble it might have less to do with those who are against cheating, and more to do with Hans himself cheating. 

I don't know why you even dignify such comments with response. He probably writes 'FACT' at the end of his opinion online regularly.

You are probably right. But to me it's interesting. My neighbor is currently in a lawsuit and things like intent, and facts, matter. He was outside watering his flowers. His next door neighbor (who is VERY adversarial) approached him. So he sprayed him with the garden hose. Now his neighbor is suing for damage to his eye, mental distress, ptsd, etc. What are the facts, what was the intent (by both). 

In the case of Hans, to paraphrase Pawn I believe it is, I think Hans is an idiot. Everyone he is suing has deeper pockets and better lawyers. Not only does this make Hans look bad, what he's doing actually DOES have the potential to ruin his career. If would have just admitted his past mistakes, been a little more humble, he could probably move on to a good career. Now he has chess tournament organizers thinking twice about inviting someone who is sue happy. 

But wait .... YOU'RE his next door neighbour.

I don't like the look of Hans. Can he sue me because now I've said that, he'll never be able to have a lasting relationship?

It seems to me that Cheese.comb, which has a very strong, established position regarding cheating, is now big enough to be a prime mover. Magnus is a likely ally. FIDE has seemed more and more out of touch and less and less competent over the past 30 to 40 years. It's noteable that c.c sides more with the USCF re. rules interpretation. I'm a Brit and supposed to be European and suspicious of anything the US does but I already think Merriam-Webster is a better dictionary than the Oxford. I also prefer the USCF's more pragmatic approach to chess. I quite simply don't like FIDE and I can imagine my sentiments being shared by others. I've a feeling we're witnessing the start of some kind of change.

Outlaw Blues.

Avatar of Optimissed

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi87e3OxvL6AhXARkEAHRHCAQsQtwJ6BAgMEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DDYBE-F8FIfk&usg=AOvVaw0AKgkHCdY9eiSv_ce_VrSS

Avatar of PawnTsunami
lfPatriotGames wrote:

In the case of Hans, to paraphrase Pawn I believe it is, I think Hans is an idiot. Everyone he is suing has deeper pockets and better lawyers. Not only does this make Hans look bad, what he's doing actually DOES have the potential to ruin his career. If would have just admitted his past mistakes, been a little more humble, he could probably move on to a good career. Now he has chess tournament organizers thinking twice about inviting someone who is sue happy. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say he is an idiot, but I do not think it is a smart move.  Anytime you go this route, you have to consider the endgame.  Take the Depp-Heard trial, for example.  The endgame for Johnny was to clear his name so he could get back to work (he was basically blacklisted because of what Amber wrote).  So what is the endgame here?  If Hans loses the case (which I think is likely), his career is over.  If Hans wins the case, he is not going to get $100M from each defendant, and his career is over.

If I had to guess, I think he sees this as a way out.  Borislav Ivanov simply stopped playing when he was confronted, but he had an engineering degree to fall back on.  I think this is Hans hoping they will settle and he will be able to cash out with something.

An interesting aside:  if he happens to win any of these cases, I fully expect to see Maxim Dlugy filing a lawsuit (likely with the same legal team) against chess.com.

Avatar of CrusaderKing1
PawnTsunami wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

In the case of Hans, to paraphrase Pawn I believe it is, I think Hans is an idiot. Everyone he is suing has deeper pockets and better lawyers. Not only does this make Hans look bad, what he's doing actually DOES have the potential to ruin his career. If would have just admitted his past mistakes, been a little more humble, he could probably move on to a good career. Now he has chess tournament organizers thinking twice about inviting someone who is sue happy. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say he is an idiot, but I do not think it is a smart move.  Anytime you go this route, you have to consider the endgame.  Take the Depp-Heard trial, for example.  The endgame for Johnny was to clear his name so he could get back to work (he was basically blacklisted because of what Amber wrote).  So what is the endgame here?  If Hans loses the case (which I think is likely), his career is over.  If Hans wins the case, he is not going to get $100M from each defendant, and his career is over.

If I had to guess, I think he sees this as a way out.  Borislav Ivanov simply stopped playing when he was confronted, but he had an engineering degree to fall back on.  I think this is Hans hoping they will settle and he will be able to cash out with something.

An interesting aside:  if he happens to win any of these cases, I fully expect to see Maxim Dlugy filing a lawsuit (likely with the same legal team) against chess.com.

Sometimes the end game is a forced procedure.

Hans didn't want the endgame to come to this, but he was certainly pressured into by false claims of OTB cheating by top chess personalities.

It was a forced move.

The same way Johnny Depp probably didn't want to sue Amber, it was mostly forced due to his issues getting work, just like Hans.

Borislav has no case so I don't understand the comparison. The guy cheated OTB. There is no evidence Hans cheated OTB.

Maxim Dlugy should file a lawsuit as well. Magnus inferences of cheating without proof is ridiculous. 

But against chess.com, I'm not sure Dlugy can win. He might, but who knows. He did admit to cheating online so I doubt it.

Avatar of Optimissed

Niemann is worth $5 million. Funding a big lawsuit himself would be a gigantic gamble which could ruin him. If the lawsuit goes ahead, it would probably be funded on a no-win-no-pay basis. Therefore, there's every chance it won't go ahead. Just noise.

Avatar of PawnTsunami
CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Sometimes the end game is a forced procedure.

Hans didn't want the endgame to come to this, but he was certainly pressured into by false claims of OTB cheating by top chess personalities.

It was a forced move.

The same way Johnny Depp probably didn't want to sue Amber, it was mostly forced due to his issues getting work, just like Hans.

He may have seen it that way, but in his case it was most definitely not a forced move (unless he actually was cheating and knew that he would no longer be able to hide it well enough - that is what Lance Armstrong tried to do).

CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Borislav has no case so I don't understand the comparison. The guy cheated OTB. There is no evidence Hans cheated OTB.

I really do not understand how you got through medical school with your level of reading comprehension.

The point was Borislav simply walked away from the game, but he had something to fall back on.  Whether or not Hans cheated is irrelevant to that comparison.  It was purely a comparison of outcomes.

CrusaderKing1 wrote:

Maxim Dlugy should file a lawsuit as well. Magnus inferences of cheating without proof is ridiculous. 

But against chess.com, I'm not sure Dlugy can win. He might, but who knows. He did admit to cheating online so I doubt it.

You cannot claim defamation on implications.  He literally has no case against Magnus.  I can see that going before the judge:  "Your honor, he implied I was a cheater."  "Oh, what did he say?"  "I said he must be doing a great job with his mentee as he has been playing extremely well".  "Case dismissed".

Dlugy has a better case against chess.com for making the confidential emails public, which could potentially damage his reputation.  And if you read the emails carefully, you see the problem with his "admission".  When Chess.com "catches" you, they give you an option:  admit you cheated and say you won't do it again, or don't play here.  That is effectively an admission under duress.