Penalty for Not Taking Notation in USCF Game

Sort:
TheAdultProdigy

Has anyone ever been in this situation or know the rule?  I was recently in severe time trouble and ceased taking notation, which was my right, since I was under 5 minutes left.  My opponent, with 15 minutes, stopped taking notation to put more pressure on me to mess up (and I did) in a drawn position (actually, I had the edge).

 

I realize I should have stopped the clock and contacted the tournament director, but what is actually supposed to be done in this case as far as penalty and protocol?

Martin_Stahl

For the USCF if either player is under 5 minutes, neither has to notate. Without a complete scoresheet some draws can not be claimed, though a draw claim in such a situation is considered a draw offer (well, all draw claims are also considered draw offers by default).

TheAdultProdigy

Oh, wow.  Thanks Martin.  I didn't realize that both players need not notate as soon as one was under 5 minutes.  Jeez, I'm glad you mentioned it, so I don't look like a goof, should this ever happen again.

TheOldReb

USCF rules are that if either player is under 5 min both players can stop keeping score and this is inferior to the FIDE version in which a player must be under 5 min ( and without increment of 30 sec or more ) himself before he may stop keeping score . 

Ziryab

I had three opponents under five minutes in four games this weekend. I notated every game fully. 

The event was USCF. TC was game in 2 hours + 5 sec delay. Delay is different from increment. Increment adds unused time.

pfren

If you have 30 sec. or more increment per move then you are obliged writing all moves, and you must do it AFTER you have made your move.

Martin_Stahl
pfren wrote:

If you have 30 sec. or more increment per move then you are obliged writing all moves, and you must do it AFTER you have made your move.

Correct. I probably should have mentioned that too.

TheAdultProdigy
Ziryab wrote:

I had three opponents under five minutes in four games this weekend. I notated every game fully. 

The event was USCF. TC was game in 2 hours + 5 sec delay. Delay is different from increment. Increment adds unused time.

Speaking of which, very nice job earning clear first in the Spokane Falls Open.  

TheAdultProdigy
pfren wrote:

If you have 30 sec. or more increment per move then you are obliged writing all moves, and you must do it AFTER you have made your move.

Oh, is that true for USCF?  I wouldn't know, judging by the practices I see at tournaments.

Martin_Stahl

Yes, the same rule applies to USCF tournaments (with time controls having 30 sec delay or increment).

Ziryab
Milliern wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I had three opponents under five minutes in four games this weekend. I notated every game fully. 

The event was USCF. TC was game in 2 hours + 5 sec delay. Delay is different from increment. Increment adds unused time.

Speaking of which, very nice job earning clear first in the Spokane Falls Open.  

Thanks. I'm happy to finally win a weekend Swiss.

It wasn't a particularly strong tournament with only four players (of 30) over 1800, and only one over 1900. Even so, there were several underrated youth, including two recent grade level state champions, and several unrated players, including adults (one unrated adult finished with a provisional rating over 1800).

The top rated player's peak rating is just under 2200 and he rarely loses to anyone below expert. I beat him in the fourth round by surviving his sacrificial attacks, making 6-7 only moves through the course of a 29 move game. Last time I played him, I survived his attacks and earned a draw. He was 2031 then and I was under 1800.

I did not have an easy game in the event. I played 213 moves in four games. Round one was against one of my top students (his younger brother, also a student of mine, was fifth grade state champion this year). 

TheAdultProdigy
Ziryab wrote:
Milliern wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I had three opponents under five minutes in four games this weekend. I notated every game fully. 

The event was USCF. TC was game in 2 hours + 5 sec delay. Delay is different from increment. Increment adds unused time.

Speaking of which, very nice job earning clear first in the Spokane Falls Open.  

Thanks. I'm happy to finally win a weekend Swiss.

It wasn't a particularly strong tournament with only four players (of 30) over 1800, and only one over 1900. Even so, there were several underrated youth, including two recent grade level state champions, and several unrated players, including adults (one unrated adult finished with a provisional rating over 1800).

The top rated player's peak rating is just under 2200 and he rarely loses to anyone below expert. I beat him in the fourth round by surviving his sacrificial attacks, making 6-7 only moves through the course of a 29 move game. Last time I played him, I survived his attacks and earned a draw. He was 2031 then and I was under 1800.

I did not have an easy game in the event. I played 213 moves in four games. Round one was against one of my top students (his younger brother, also a student of mine, was fifth grade state champion this year). 

Being in the 1800's and having the consistency to run through 4 players in the 1700's isn't easy.  The consistency marks much higher play than your rating.  Very strong performance rating.  Keep up the blog and the FB posts.

Ziryab
Milliern wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
Milliern wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I had three opponents under five minutes in four games this weekend. I notated every game fully. 

The event was USCF. TC was game in 2 hours + 5 sec delay. Delay is different from increment. Increment adds unused time.

Speaking of which, very nice job earning clear first in the Spokane Falls Open.  

Thanks. I'm happy to finally win a weekend Swiss.

It wasn't a particularly strong tournament with only four players (of 30) over 1800, and only one over 1900. Even so, there were several underrated youth, including two recent grade level state champions, and several unrated players, including adults (one unrated adult finished with a provisional rating over 1800).

The top rated player's peak rating is just under 2200 and he rarely loses to anyone below expert. I beat him in the fourth round by surviving his sacrificial attacks, making 6-7 only moves through the course of a 29 move game. Last time I played him, I survived his attacks and earned a draw. He was 2031 then and I was under 1800.

I did not have an easy game in the event. I played 213 moves in four games. Round one was against one of my top students (his younger brother, also a student of mine, was fifth grade state champion this year). 

Being in the 1800's and having the consistency to run through 4 players in the 1700's isn't easy.  The consistency marks much higher play than your rating.  Very strong performance rating.  Keep up the blog and the FB posts.

I did that during my climb to 1982 a few years ago (see http://chessskill.blogspot.com/2012/07/eleven-consecutive-wins.html). In this event, my opponents were rated 1298 (underrated youth), 1546, 1961 (top seed), and 1862 (possibly underrated--GeniusKJ on chess.com). I'm now back over 1900 for the first time since dropping below last summer.

Diakonia
Milliern wrote:

Has anyone ever been in this situation or know the rule?  I was recently in severe time trouble and ceased taking notation, which was my right, since I was under 5 minutes left.  My opponent, with 15 minutes, stopped taking notation to put more pressure on me to mess up (and I did) in a drawn position (actually, I had the edge).

 

I realize I should have stopped the clock and contacted the tournament director, but what is actually supposed to be done in this case as far as penalty and protocol?

Youre opponent has the right to also stop recording the game, but you both also forfeit the right to claim a draw, etc.

ANOK1

English Chess Fed says player with <5 mins no need to notate but opponrent if over 5 mins must

kleelof

If neither player is noting their moves, how are disputes resolved if one claims a certain move was/wasn't made?

Ziryab

As for the topic of this thread, I had been telling some people before round one that USCF rules now require that the move be recorded after playing it on the board. I taunted a few friends with the announcement that I might ask the TD to enforce this rule just so that I could have two minutes added to my clock.

The USCF had implemented this rule a few years ago with two aims: accommodating the Monroi scoring device, and bringing USCF rules into consistency with FIDE rules. However, there was an outcry of protest from tournament directors who said they would not enforce the new rule, and the USCF balked.

This topic came up in another thread here a week or so ago, so I grabbed the rule book and read Rule 15A, where it states, in part, "The player must first make the move, and then record it on the scoresheet."

Alas, I was too hasty in my reading, and this was pointed out to me during round one when I got up to go to the drinking fountain. Rule 15A (Variation 1) states, in part, "The player using a paper scoresheet may first make the move, and then write it on the scoresheet, or vice versa. The variation does not need to be advertised in advance."

Rule 15B is quite clear and well summarized by Reb in post #4 above. When either player is under 5 minutes, neither needs to keep score. There are consequences: draw claims by the 50-move rule or repetition of position are no longer permitted. A win on time also cannot be claimed in certain conditions (see Rule 13C). Our tournament was sudden death (only one time control), so I could still win on time without keeping score. 

Ziryab
kleelof wrote:

If neither player is noting their moves, how are disputes resolved if one claims a certain move was/wasn't made?

In youth tournaments, I face this issue as a TD constantly. It is rarely easy. I seek a point in the game where both players agree. Sometimes it takes extended discussion, which must be conducted in a manner that minimizes disruption to the play on nearby boards.

Observers on nearby boards, who might serve as witnesses, are usually asked to remain silent. It is not always clear what their stake may be in the result. 

TheAdultProdigy
Ziryab wrote:

 

Rule 15B is quite clear and well summarized by Reb in post #4 above. When either player is under 5 minutes, neither needs to keep score. There are consequences: draw claims by the 50-move rule or repetition of position are no longer permitted. A win on time also cannot be claimed in certain conditions (see Rule 13C). Our tournament was sudden death (only one time control), so I could still win on time without keeping score. 

Wait, you mean there can be no such draws without notifying a TD to count the moves or observe the threefold repetition, right? 

Ziryab
Milliern wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

 

Rule 15B is quite clear and well summarized by Reb in post #4 above. When either player is under 5 minutes, neither needs to keep score. There are consequences: draw claims by the 50-move rule or repetition of position are no longer permitted. A win on time also cannot be claimed in certain conditions (see Rule 13C). Our tournament was sudden death (only one time control), so I could still win on time without keeping score. 

Wait, you mean there can be no such draws without notifying a TD to count the moves or observe the threefold repetition, right? 

I cannot recall ever seeing a third party count moves in a USCF rated event.

In our NWSRS rated youth events, it has sometimes been common. I have sometimes intervened without a request from a player when the last game to finish in the round was a queen chasing a king all over the board, check, check, check, ... with abundant evidence that we could be there until Christmas waiting for the game to end.