Ponz Says He Can Refute Ponziani!

manic13   Thank you so much!  I just did change that setting to stay on this game.  This will help a lot!

Here is where most of the games are now or headed towards this position from these moves:

So far, nobody has played 12. Qd5 which is said to reach a draw or very even position.  Analysis of this was posted in the Ponziani forum.

Mainland Novelty still have a chance to play this move.

UIUCBoss1674 is not currently responding and that game is so far behind will have to abort.

I'm no strong player but I would feel more comfortable as black here

I actually played Qa6 to follow Bluebird's analysis. I now think it's a mistake, but in one of your games White's losing move seems to be only 16.h3? by NM JMB2010. 16.Kd1 seems to lead to an advantage for Black but does not appear to lose yet.

I'm looking at alternatives on the 13th and 14th moves at this point but 12.Qd5 may be best, although 12.Na3 also seems playable. I haven't studied these moves enough.

Expertise  Here is a suggestion.  If you or Bluebird1964 wish to try

12. Qd5 as an extra game--let's look at that variation also!

Let the viewers get their money's worth  [they are paying us nothing ] 

I think it would be easier for me to play against a team. However, now, a lot of what I prepared is out of the bag.

The main line to play for a sure draw or even game is the move 12. Qd5 as analyzed in the Ponziani thread.  There was the game BrianWall vs FirebrandX which ended in a draw and is the latest theory on this whole line.  If there is a team who would like to play this against me I am game

This format where everybody can see moves in every game is not easy as others can avoid lines where I might be doing well.

We are starting a new game.  I will play Expedrtise87 Black vs the Ponziani.

The reason for this game is to test this line which is said to lead to a draw.

[

or even game]

Well, in most games we can said to be in the late opening [and a very complicated variation of the Ponziani].

For Ponziani fans [and I am one of them] do not despair if I happen to do well. This line is very complicated and you are not likely to see this line at all.  The players I am playing now are all part of Ponziani Analysis group and they have been studying the Ponziani for quite a few months.

richie and oprah   I do not think this is solipsism.  Methinks my opponents are real.

The game 1 random vs ponz111 has reached a very unusual position on move 22.  

He's playing with some titled players, one with the help of a 2550 GM and all with the help of top engines. Anyone at this level meets most definitions of 'real good.' I now strongly disagree with FM Bluebird and his GM collaborator on the move 12.Qa6, and believe it leads to a forced win for Black after 12...e4 13.Nd4 c5 14.Nc2 d5 15.Be3 Ng4. My try at revitalizing the line relied on the variation 16.Kd1 d4 17.Qe2 (17.Bd2 is no better) 17...dxe3 (not ponz's 17...h5! which wins) 18.Qxg4 Qd6+ 19.Kc1 Qxh2 20.Nxe3 Qxg1 21.Qe2 Rad8 22.Nd2 Bc7 23.Kc2 Bf4 24.Re1 where Black is only slightly better.

12.Qd5 still looks equal as far as I can see; I'm interested in what Mr. Taylor has up his sleeve here!

Bluebird - Black has no reason to exchange Queens there? 16.Bxc5 Rfc8 planning on Rc6 and Rac8 and 16...Rfb8 both look clearly better for Black as far as I've looked. Even the line where Black does exchange Queens 16...Rfb8 17.Kd1 (all other moves seem to actually lose) 17...Bxc5 18.Qxf6 gxf6 19.h3 Ne3+ 20.Nxe3 Bxe3 leads to a very difficult and quite possibly losing endgame for White. What am I missing?

There is a new game started Expertise87 vs Ponz111 This is a somewhat different variation of the Fraser Defense. Here are the moves so far...

All of a sudden I can see Ponziani Discussion Without Spam but I cannot post there.  I notice a lot of analysis on a current game. The analysis is same as mine to a certain point and then I vary.  

That I have a refutation to the Ponziani is said with tonque in cheek.

For example I have acknowledged in this thread there is no refutation to

1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  Nf6 4. d3.

I was interested in the Fraser variation which is almost forced if White does not want to play the 4. d3 [equal] line. The Fraser is very interesting and I have/had some new ideas.  Wanted to test them out and also possibly someone will find a good line vs the Fraser--then a benefit.

Obviously I am not a leader of a Ponziani Cult or I surely would not post good lines against the Ponziani as I have on several occasions. To me the truth is most important and by playing these important Fraser lines we will get closer to whatever the truth is.

And the games should be and are entertaining.

Regardless of how this particular very complex line comes out--the Ponziani is a good practical opening for the vast majority of players.

I am sorry that a couple of people get so upset at the Ponziani or at me telling the good and bad points about the Ponziani that they have/had to resort to a personal attack.  It is way beyond me why this should be.

One person I asked not to do mean spirited attacks on another individual and so he defriended me and personal attacked me.

Life is too short for personal attacks.  It makes no sense to me.

We can have fun analyzing  this weird variation of the Ponziani and that is my goal.

ponz I see at least a hundred possible continuations from our game that all lead to interesting play. It will be a while before I move because I need to refute all but one line of play or at least find the most promising line. White might actually have more than equality here as well, although there are many, many pitfalls. It would be a nightmare to play either side of this OTB. My first instinct is the continuation 16.Qf5 offering a queen trade, after which Black has two very interesting moves in 16...Qh6!? and 16...Qd6.

It is strange that winning back the piece immediately with 16...Bxd4 is bad just because Black is down so much material here.

I am also considering in detail 16.Nf3. I looked at 16.Ke1 but it loses after 16...Bxd4 17.cxd4 Qxd4 18.Qe2 d5 19.g4 f5 20.gxf5 Rxf5-+

16.Nf3 Re6 17.a4 is also very interesting and not to be quickly dismissed. 17...Rfe8 is probably best but 17...a5 and 17...a6 must also be considered.

This is the most complicated position I've had to analyze in a long time. Crazy stuff! It's sure to be fun no matter what happens, but I doubt these games will actually prove anything just because there are so many reasonable-looking moves for White while Black has to play tons of only-moves. It is because of this that I will not fear entering these lines over the board - my opponent would have to have an excellent memory and superior preparation which is very unlikely at this point.

At the end of your line 19...Bxc5 is critical and was the reason I initially rejected it. Going deeper, 20.bxc5 Qf2 21.Rh1 Qf4 might cause problems for White. 22.Bb5 and 22.Nd4 are both possible there, but I suspect giving up the Queen is forced after 22.Bb5 Nf2+ 23.Ke2 R6c7 24.Qxc8+ Rxc8 where despite having a Rook and two minors for a Queen and a pawn, White still looks behind to me, though it might end up being equal in the long run.

22.Nd4 Nf2+ 23.Kc2 Rxc5 certainly looks dangerous, but might be dangerous for both sides.

16...Rfb8 17.Rh1 Qf4 I initially analyzed as winning for Black (Houdini gives it -3.20 at depth 23 and I did look at lines past here and they all seemed to win for Black) so I will definitely have to take another look if you say it is equal.

I agree these games will not actually prove anything as there are just too many variations to consider for both sides.  They will get us closer to what I call the "truth"  They will give food for thought for future players of this Fraser Defense line.

However, one of the  main reasons I started this thread is the entertainment value. Many will watch these games progress and will enjoy...

We get weird positions and here is an example--current game and position vs 1 random.  Please notice the line up on the first rank--have you ever seen something like this in a "real game"??

There are two games now finished. I won by resignation vs Expertise87 and  FM BlueBird1964.  I will have to say that BlueBird plays without an engine and I used an engine so that game was hardly fair in this complex variation of the Ponziani.

Both Expertise87 and BlueBird1964 are starting another game under the same terms.

I still have games going on with 1 random and Mainline_Novelty and FM JMB1020.  So there will be a total of 7 games. BlueBird1964 is the only player who is not using a chess engine in these games which all have moved into the very complicated Fraser Defense.